LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[mmksparbud]

You claim authority from the bible??--No you claim authority from a guy who read stones in a hat and claimed to have seen golden plates and an angel of light. Then He gets a few family members and cronies to agree with him. These family members, along with JS had all been treasure hunters and he used seer stones to find that treasure. Apparently was not too good at it, or there just wasn't any treasure there for him to find---unless you count the golden plates story as his treasure.
You don't have authority for anything--you have claimed authority for a priesthood that is not valid from a man that claimed to have had dicples of Jesus from heaven give it to him. A claim he can not prove.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You claim authority from the bible??--No you claim authority from a guy who read stones in a hat and claimed to have seen golden plates and an angel of light. Then He gets a few family members and cronies to agree with him. These family members, along with JS had all been treasure hunters and he used seer stones to find that treasure. Apparently was not too good at it, or there just wasn't any treasure there for him to find---unless you count the golden plates story as his treasure.
You don't have authority for anything--you have claimed authority for a priesthood that is not valid from a man that claimed to have had dicples of Jesus from heaven give it to him. A claim he can not prove.

along with JS had all been treasure hunters and he used seer stones to find that treasure.

which ones? Which one of his family and those who helped with establishing the Church went treasure hunting?

 

[fatboys]

You claim authority from the bible??--No you claim authority from a guy who read stones in a hat and claimed to have seen golden plates and an angel of light. Then He gets a few family members and cronies to agree with him. These family members, along with JS had all been treasure hunters and he used seer stones to find that treasure. Apparently was not too good at it, or there just wasn't any treasure there for him to find---unless you count the golden plates story as his treasure.
You don't have authority for anything--you have claimed authority for a priesthood that is not valid from a man that claimed to have had dicples of Jesus from heaven give it to him. A claim he can not prove.

And what can you claim? "I have Jesus". So do I. But there is more to it than what you think there is. It is human nature to take the path of least resistance. Faith without any works to show that faith proves that point.

 

[withwonderingawe]

But there is more to it than what you think there is. It is human nature to take the path of least resistance. Faith without any works to show that faith proves that point.

AMEN!

 

[tickingclocker]

I don't take every word of the Book of Mormon as divine. There are mans own thoughts about their understanding of God. They are right but that is their own opinions. There are flaws and mistakes in the Book of Mormon because it has been handle by man who is imperfect. It is more correct than the bible in the translation and closer to the pure intent. It has been handled less by man. And if you were taught that it was that is mans error in teaching you that because it is not perfect. It says that in the Book of Mormon that if there are error it is not because of God it is because the errors of man. Man is the one who places both the bible and the Book of Mormon in a perfection mode. Those that teach the Book of Mormon is innerroant are just as wrong as you saying the bible is innerroant. You guys say this because that is the only way you can rationalize gaining authority from it and claim that priesthood power isn't important because you have none of priesthood. In actuality Levites have more priesthood power to act In Gods name that you do. You can't get authority to act in Gods name for the bible. You can live your lives to be Christlike and you can do good deeds to help people come to Christ but you have now authority to baptize or give priesthood blessings because you guys have none. That does. It mean you can't follow Jesus and have faith in him but there is so much more truth.

Your version of a divine God is as a weakling, then, according to that description. Plain and simple. Not something that would ever attract me. In Christianity God is.... GOD, all holy, all divine, all powerful, and knows exactly what He's doing at all times. Mormons are stuck on "authority" as their primary reason for faith. For what? To give yourselves a sense of safety, of power? For what? They give themselves authority through self-applied subversive tactics, like being forced to promote that everyone else is wrong and they are right. They must ignore the thousands of years us lowly Christians have been martyred for our faith. Meanwhile, they haven't produced even a single half-baked martyr for Christ since JS. You can play at "priesthood authority" all you want. But until you produce the genuine fruit of one single martyr? Your faith in "authority" is mostly just a sad game you must play amongst yourselves to avoid the truth. You can no more rip God's authority away from Him as I can give it to Him!

I just sat here for about a half hour trying to compare it to something, but such "thinking" is so beyond bizarre to even me it's wholly indescribable! God blesses us, as well as even non-believers. Why would you assume we have need of men to "bless" us? With incantations through unbiblical false "ceremonies"?? We are given God's authority when God determines to give it. Such a perspective as yours, on the other hand, rips God's holiness and authority away from HIS hands, not from us. All I can say is, I pity Mormons so deeply and completely, in your chosen blindness. God, forgive them. They don't know how they are actually demeaning Your holiness.

 

[dzheremi]

And what can you claim? "I have Jesus". So do I. But there is more to it than what you think there is. It is human nature to take the path of least resistance. Faith without any works to show that faith proves that point.

The path of least resistance? So I guess that would make Mormonism the path of most resistance, then? I would like to know on what basis you think that. I am unaware of any Mormon monks, Mormon fasting periods, Mormon daily prayer rules, Mormon night vigils, extended Mormon liturgies/masses which express ascetic ideals, etc., and these are the kinds of things that are characteristic of the Christian ascetic life (the path of most resistance, as it were).

 

[tickingclocker]

Of course the bible is scripture but IT IS NOT PERFECT!!!!! YOU CANNOT GET ANY AUTHORITY FROM THE BIBLE TO ACT IN GODS NAME.
If a Muslim said he believed that Jesus was the Christ and paid for his sins but still followed Islam could he claim authority from the bible?

The bible says we do have God's authority, when GOD determines we have need it for His kingdom. That's why there are Christian missionaries serving in the world, and dying for their faith. That's why there are pastors bringing people to Christ, and dying for their faith. That's why the Good News is still with us. Because of faithful people who take the name of Jesus with them to the world, because they believe Him.

Not mormonism. Mormonism takes ITS name into the world. Not God's. Mormonism is the Muslim here. Not Christianity. WE are known as the Christians. Not Mormons. YOU must borrow from Christianity to validate yourselves, not Christians must borrow from mormonism! God validates our position in Jesus Christ. Not you, not JS, nobody. One man comes along and tries to turn Christianity upside down. He hasn't succeeded so far. His false belief system is still on the outside looking in after 200 years! You are the ones who have capitulated to the world, not Christianity. We still bear the same Good News to the world as always. Jesus saves. God loves you. And you can't stop us.

You are the one who admitted your faith in God would fall flat without JS. I can honestly state that my faith in God will never fall flat without.... Hmm... Lets see...

Jesus Christ is the only one standing there. And I KNOW He is my Savior and Lord. The only power in this world thats worth anything, is love. Such a mindset as yours has none.

 

[fatboys]

The path of least resistance? So I guess that would make Mormonism the path of most resistance, then? I would like to know on what basis you think that. I am unaware of any Mormon monks, Mormon fasting periods, Mormon daily prayer rules, Mormon night vigils, extended Mormon liturgies/masses which express ascetic ideals, etc., and these are the kinds of things that are characteristic of the Christian ascetic life (the path of most resistance, as it were).

Looks like you don't know a lot about mormons

 

[dzheremi]

Can you please just answer the content of the post? I'm trying to figure out in what way Mormonism would be considered to be the path of most resistance, or at least more resistance than Christianity, which has all of things I mentioned.

 

[tickingclocker]

Of course the bible is scripture but IT IS NOT PERFECT!!!!! YOU CANNOT GET ANY AUTHORITY FROM THE BIBLE TO ACT IN GODS NAME.
If a Muslim said he believed that Jesus was the Christ and paid for his sins but still followed Islam could he claim authority from the bible?

How can the divine not be perfect? God gives us His authority. God gave a donkey authority to speak for Him. What makes you think "Mormons" must be so unique?

 

[tickingclocker]

which ones? Which one of his family and those who helped with establishing the Church went treasure hunting?

Martin Harris, for one, which is how he and JS met up. Oliver Cowdery, JS's cousin, was also known as a fellow treasure hunter. Both those men are claimed as part of the first "three witnesses" to the BoM. David Whitmer was not a treasure hunter. No, he was a budding, outright charlatan, bent on developing his own church based upon the BoM, in competition of JS to cash in on his own piece of the religion pie.

 

[miknik5]

God's written word does not contradict His Voice/Spirit...

And God's Voice/Spirit does not contradict His written word

For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy

Nothing needs to be added to the story of mankinds salvation in by and through The Son. And any man who does add to the story makes manifest that he does not even understand the magnitude of the story of our salvation in by and through the Son

To the Testimony and the Law
If they do not speak according to Thd Word it is because there is no Light there in

 

[mmksparbud]

And what can you claim? "I have Jesus". So do I. But there is more to it than what you think there is. It is human nature to take the path of least resistance. Faith without any works to show that faith proves that point.

No, you do not have Jesus. Not the Jesus of the bible and it is a Jesus you do not want. Least resistance?? Don't know how you arrive at that. Except that You want to work for your salvation and you think that makes you more worthy and it is herder to do. It's harder to do only in the fact that you do have to make a great effort to do the things that make you worthy. Have a list and be sure you do all those things. Those who have Jesus, do not have to work at it, we have no list of duties to memorize, when the opportunity presents itself you simply, out of love for God and your fellow man, do what needs to be done. When you put God and others first, it's automatic. Someone drops their packages, you help them pick them up, you encounter someone who is hungry you feed them, your neighbor falls, you run and help them, it's not a list of hardships to endure and trudge through---it is a privilege to help others, it is a lifestyle.

 

[tickingclocker]

Looks like you don't know a lot about mormons

They have no monks. They do have "Fasting Sundays", where they give the money they would have spent on a meal to the church for the "poor" (read poor Mormons). But the majority don't actually "fast", not as Christians know of "fasting" anyway. One ex-mo friend tells me they used to eat sandwiches after Fasting Sunday at home. Until her mother ran out of bread one time and had to make lunch because the dad ordered her to. They never went back to eating sandwiches after that. Everybody knows it happens, but most don't dare admit it to each other.

It may be that its "suggested" to pray each day, but Mormons have no official daily prayer rules nor do they hold vigils. At least not the ones I've known, nor did I ever see one when Mormon. They hold no masses or liturgies, except if you consider their yearly Conference in Salt Lake City, Utah, a 'vigil". (IDK if they would see it that way.) Their "Word of Wisdom" suggests a few dietary rules, but I've never known a single Mormon who ever acknowledged the "eat no meat except in times of famine" rule. Not as many follow the others, like avoiding caffeine, as much as they used to. I was thoroughly stunned to notice a dedicated Mormon I highly respect as a person down a coffee the other day at a function and smack his lips after! Good thing I was sitting down. I was too embarrassed for him to comment on it to him.

 

[fatboys]

No, you do not have Jesus. Not the Jesus of the bible and it is a Jesus you do not want. Least resistance?? Don't know how you arrive at that. Except that You want to work for your salvation and you think that makes you more worthy and it is herder to do. It's harder to do only in the fact that you do have to make a great effort to do the things that make you worthy. Have a list and be sure you do all those things. Those who have Jesus, do not have to work at it, we have no list of duties to memorize, when the opportunity presents itself you simply, out of love for God and your fellow man, do what needs to be done. When you put God and others first, it's automatic. Someone drops their packages, you help them pick them up, you encounter someone who is hungry you feed them, your neighbor falls, you run and help them, it's not a list of hardships to endure and trudge through---it is a privilege to help others, it is a lifestyle.

Well I could make the same claim about you. You believe in false interpretations of who Jesus is and only have a fraction of understanding of what Jesus has done for us. A restoration has taken place which you have rejected.

 

[mmksparbud]

I believe in the Jesus of the bible, not in the Jesus of JS. God has protected His word because He said He would. And what God says is--plain and simple. God does not lie, His will, will be done.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[dzheremi]

Seeking to answer my own curiosity, since Fatboys apparently doesn't feel like explaining why he asserts things, I found this short explanation of a Mormon service:

It seems that the portion most closely corresponding to a Christian liturgy/mass would be what the video calls 'sacrament meeting', which consists of a few speeches from congregation members, voting on something or other, a few hymns, and the Mormon version of communion. In the words of the narrator, "participation in sacrament meeting is passive, so just sit back, relax, and enjoy", and "the only optional participation from the congregation is to say 'Amen' after prayers and talks."

Again I ask: How is this the path of most/more resistance, in comparison to Christianity? I do not understand. There is very little to do, according to what Mormons themselves say about how their meetings work.

 

[miknik5]

Ever and always that question remains?

Who do you say I AM?

 

[fatboys]

I believe in the Jesus of the bible, not in the Jesus of JS. God has protected His word because He said He would. And what God says is--plain and simple. God does not lie, His will, will be done.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Again why would God put any more effort to preserve his word than he did by putting Israel in Egypt knowing that they would become slaves? If God had the power to forcibly take Israel out at the time of Moses why did he just make it rain? If God made the effort to preserve his word why didn't he preserve his plan to start with from the begining so there would have been no need for a savior or a resurrection from the dead because there would have been no need. Because gods plan didn't work out the first time why is God sure his plan for redemption is going to be perfect? Christianity cannot answer these questions.

 

[miknik5]

Again why would God put any more effort to preserve his word than he did by putting Israel in Egypt knowing that they would become slaves? If God had the power to forcibly take Israel out at the time of Moses why did he just make it rain? If God made the effort to preserve his word why didn't he preserve his plan to start with from the begining so there would have been no need for a savior or a resurrection from the dead because there would have been no need. Because gods plan didn't work out the first time why is God sure his plan for redemption is going to be perfect? Christianity cannot answer these questions.

Because there was a need. And that need was from the beginning