LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Peter1000]

This has been explained to you so many times.

We, Christians know who we are in Christ. We know we are part of His priesthood, but nothing to brag about because we ALL are.

In contrast, in Mormonism it is a big thing. The priesthood in Mormonism EXCLUDES people who believe in Christ, but that are not Mormon.[/QUOTE
If you were not a Christian, you could not hold the MP in the time of the apostles. It is just that simple.

 

[Peter1000]

The same thing has happened to a lot of people. And not just within mormonism. I think what held more lasting heartbreak for me was that it was my own parents trying to make me believe something I knew deep down inside that there was something off about it. It's scary to a child to realize your parents choose to believe a lie when you got smacked for lying--by them. I was taught that God was... everything! He was the reason for our existence, our toys, our food, our family... everything. So if He wasn't what He said He was, then what did that make life? Very uncertain.

How is God not everything? To me He is the reson for our existence, our toys, our food, our family....everything.
If he wasn't, then my life would be very uncertain too, but I never came to a conclusion that God was not everthing.

Did you come to that conclusion that God was not everything? How?

 

[Ironhold]

Stop using that word Christian counter-cult.

And what power do you have to stop me?

It's the actual, accurate term, and I even showed you a valid definition for it that fits.

 

[Ironhold]

There is no translation because they were made up.

But JS did translate them.

As my link notes, he only got as far as one character before giving up on the Kinderhook plates.

 

[Peter1000]

Right--It can be proven, of course, that Peter, James and John actually came to JS and this other man??

At least there were 2 men present during the event. One of them (Oliver Cowdrey) actually fell away from the church. But he never did deny that he had seen an angel and lifted the golden plates of the BOM, and he never denied that JS was a prophet of God. Oliver did try to come to Salt Lake City, but on the way west he fell ill and died.

The best way to know it is true is through the HS, but the HS will not testify to a person that is not looking for the truth.

 

[Peter1000]

There is no translation because they were made up.

But JS did translate them.

Where is the translation?

 

[Peter1000]

If you don't believe the Bible then you don't believe the Bible. Look it up for yourself.

Melchezedek is a shadow of Christ. To show what was to come.

If your talking about Hebrews 7, then Jesus fails the conditions to hold the MP.

If M were a real shadow of Christ, the bible would have given us a lot more information. We don't know of his lineage, we don't know of his death, again if he were a shadow of Christ, he would have died on the cross like Jesus. If he were a shadow of Christ, he would not have been the king of Jerusalem, he would not have been a king period. He would have been a carpenter like Christ.

Yes, he was righeous, and yes, he held the MP, but he was a lot different than Jesus Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What did you add to the bottom of my quote?

 

[ToBeLoved]

If your talking about Hebrews 7, then Jesus fails the conditions to hold the MP.

If M were a real shadow of Christ, the bible would have given us a lot more information. We don't know of his lineage, we don't know of his death, again if he were a shadow of Christ, he would have died on the cross like Jesus. If he were a shadow of Christ, he would not have been the king of Jerusalem, he would not have been a king period. He would have been a carpenter like Christ.

Yes, he was righeous, and yes, he held the MP, but he was a lot different than Jesus Christ.

But your faith the people are? That's a good one!

 

[ToBeLoved]

And what power do you have to stop me?

It's the actual, accurate term, and I even showed you a valid definition for it that fits.

It is rude. You are not talking to those people here.

 

[mmksparbud]

At least there were 2 men present during the event. One of them (Oliver Cowdrey) actually fell away from the church. But he never did deny that he had seen an angel and lifted the golden plates of the BOM, and he never denied that JS was a prophet of God. Oliver did try to come to Salt Lake City, but on the way west he fell ill and died.

The best way to know it is true is through the HS, but the HS will not testify to a person that is not looking for the truth.

I read what they said--from what I remember they never said they actually saw the people---they said they saw with their "spiritual eyes" --in their minds. (I'd have to look it up again to be sure) Not in person. Are you saying 2 men were present--JS and "another man" or 2 BESIDES JS and this other man? Was the other man Cowdrey?

 

[Lulav]

Your Attention Please!

This is the Fourth MOD HAT in this thread
There won't be another.
If you can't speak civilly to each other
then put them on ignore or don't respond to this thread
any longer.
Enough with the name-calling
Labels and flames.
Any more problems in here
and this thread will be
permanently closed.

​

 

[fatboys]

I read what they said--from what I remember they never said they actually saw the people---they said they saw with their "spiritual eyes" --in their minds. (I'd have to look it up again to be sure) Not in person. Are you saying 2 men were present--JS and "another man" or 2 BESIDES JS and this other man? Was the other man Cowdrey?

Martial Harris stated he saw them with his spiritual eyes which means what?

 

[mmksparbud]

Martial Harris stated he saw them with his spiritual eyes which means what?

Exactly!!---It was not a physical manifestation--as in the burning bush---in their minds!!! With my spiritual eyes I can envision heaven---in other words-----wishful thinking.

 

[Peter1000]

The LDS believed the plates were real until 1981, when they finally admitted they were a hoax--right AFTER scientists proved without doubt that the metal used was modern and not ancient. Not before. Too bad. Like Bill and AG Director meeting in a plane, we will never know the truth of the matter now... if the LDS was backpedaling or not.

"It's clear from the evidence above that the Church leaders believed the Kinderhook Plates were real and that Joseph translated a portion of them. Why did it take finding evidence that proved the Kinderhook Plates were fake to have the Church change their mind on whether or not Joseph tried to translate them? The Church only seems to change their beliefs (like the limited geography theory of the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, location of Hill Cumorah, American Indians are the principle ancestors of the Lamanites, etc.) when contradictory evidence disproves their recorded history. This seems inconsistent with a church run by modern-day prophets with modern revelation..... "Why, may we ask, would anyone hope they were proven genuine IF JOSEPH NEVER ATTEMPTED TO TRANSLATE THEM?"
---Mormonthink.com/Kinderhookweb.htm

Check out "Why didn't Joseph do more with the plates?" on the above website. Because when someone tells me to not bother? I learned long ago that's like hoping you won't bother because they don't want something known. And usually for good reason. Is this a good reason? Not really. There's so many stories similar to this one about JS "translating" books which are always proven false. What's one more after so many? And every time the LDS believed him. Some still do. Consider it dismissed from my thoughts. Moving on....

You say: The LDS believed the plates were real until 1981, when they finally admitted they were a hoax.

What online document did you read that evidences this comment?

You say: "It's clear from the evidence above that the Church leaders believed the Kinderhook Plates were real and that Joseph translated a portion of them.

Your evidence is your statement, you have provided no documentation for your statement.
1) document that scientists in 1981 said the plates were a hoax.
2) document that the LDS church in 1981 still believed they were real, just prior to the announcement of the scientists.
3) document that JS translated a portion of them.

If you can do that, then you would have at least a basis for making a statement like, "the evidence is clear".

 

[Peter1000]

Could be Pete's having trouble with the word "order" here. He has most likely been taught to see it as a one dimensional meaning, fitting only what the LDS promotes, and to be honest what many bible commentators [may] have assumed as well. That its an "order" like the Knights of Columbus, etc., i.e., a specialized group of people? Instead it could mean "orderly/in order", as logical sequence, a regulation, or even a command. Think outside the standard issue box. It helps. Does it have to be about authority, just because that is what has been "taught"? You have a Greek lexicon. What does it say about the word "order" in the book of Hebrews, TBL? Do you know what the Hebrew is for order in Genesis 14 and in Psalm 110?

I am not having trouble with the word "order". It's meaning in this context is an "order of priests". It means more than 2, it means many. If it were not so it would have said "Jesus was the only Priest/High Priest after Melchisedec". But Jesus's God uses the words "Jesus is a Priest/HighPriest for ever after the order of Melchisedec",
which means many will be of that "order of Melchisedec".

You can change the meaning of the word "order" and you can think outside the logical box and come up with another meaning like, "orderly, or something that is in order, or clean and orderly." Well I guess you can say that Jesus is a Priest/High Priest after the orderly/clean Melchisedec. Then you could make your point that there was only to be 2 in this orderly/clean MP. Even though the Christian bible commentators agree with my definition of "order", in this context.

 

[fatboys]

Exactly!!---It was not a physical manifestation--as in the burning bush---in their minds!!! With my spiritual eyes I can envision heaven---in other words-----wishful thinking.

Did Paul seenornwas it with his spiritual eyes

 

[Peter1000]

There is no translation because they were made up.

But JS did translate them.

What evidence do you have of how much, if any, that JS translated?

 

[Peter1000]

Did Paul seenornwas it with his spiritual eyes

I enjoy your posts, but would you please "edit" what you post. Sometimes it comes across jumbled and we have to try to figure out what you tried to say. Thanks, it will help us.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I am not having trouble with the word "order". It's meaning in this context is an "order of priests". It means more than 2, it means many. If it were not so it would have said "Jesus was the only Priest/High Priest after Melchisedec". But Jesus's God uses the words "Jesus is a Priest/HighPriest for ever after the order of Melchisedec",
which means many will be of that "order of Melchisedec".

You can change the meaning of the word "order" and you can think outside the logical box and come up with another meaning like, "orderly, or something that is in order, or clean and orderly." Well I guess you can say that Jesus is a Priest/High Priest after the orderly/clean Melchisedec. Then you could make your point that there was only to be 2 in this orderly/clean MP. Even though the Christian bible commentators agree with my definition of "order", in this context.

You need to dig deeper into this. You are attaching your definition of "order" that is unfounded in the Biblical text.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5010&t=NIV

τάξις
Transliteration
taxis
Pronunciation
tä'-ksēs τάσσω (G5021)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: order (10x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G5021; regular arrangement, i.e. (in time) fixed succession (of rank or character), official dignity:—order.

1. an arranging, arrangement
   
   
2. order
   1. a fixed succession observing a fixed time
   • due or right order, orderly condition
   • the post, rank, or position which one holds in civic or other affairs
   1. since this position generally depends on one's talents, experience, resources

character, fashion, quality, style

Hebrews 7:17 "For it is declared: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”

1. 
   It is clear in Hebrews 7 that Jesus is the Melchizedek High Priest. Only 1 can hold that distinction. And Jesus never gave that up. Forever means forever.