LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[Hrairoo]

I'm not being flippant here, I'm interested in how these things work.

if it's just a matter of declaring your own worthiness,
it seems like it would take less time to arrive for your time slot,
say, "I'm worthy to enter",
and that's it.

that would actually take less time than examining a temple recommend card, I think.

That'd be like going to the country club and wanting to use exclusive member areas. They couldn't let you go golfing or use the fine dining area unless you've paid for a membership.

 

[Leaf473]

I am reading the New Testament in a regular KJV(not an LDS issued one) and trying to reclaim my connection to my Saviour. In the meantime, I'm researching LDS church history trying to figure out what happened to me and why that "church" is the way that it is.

May the Lord be with you.

 

[Leaf473]

That'd be like going to the country club and wanting to use exclusive member areas. They couldn't let you go golfing or use the fine dining area unless you've paid for a membership.

I can understand a secular country club doing it that way.

but if a person claims to speak on behalf of the God who created heaven and earth and raised Jesus from the dead
and says
that God requires strict adherence to a long list of very specific rules
(including paper records of dollars paid)
in order to get eternal life,

that just doesn't sound right to me.

Job 34:3 For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat.

 

[Hrairoo]

I can understand a secular country club doing it that way.

but if a person claims to speak on behalf of the God who created heaven and earth and raised Jesus from the dead
and says
that God requires strict adherence to a long list of very specific rules
(including paper records of dollars paid)
in order to get eternal life,

that just doesn't sound right to me.

Job 34:3 For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat.

Indeed. There is an air of pride and arrogance that is pervasive in Mormon culture, particularly areas with a high density of Mormons like Utah and Idaho. I was taught while in the church that out of all the churches on Earth, the LDS had exclusive possession of Christ's true gospel. You couldn't just be a member of any other Christian church and still be considered part of the kingdom. Apparently, that was one of the precious truths that musta been taken out of the Bible, where Christ said, "All who believe in me are saved...but you also gotta do it super specifically right, otherwise it doesn't count." There's also the priesthood which requires special keys to be passed down to worthy men when they are called to offices of power. So, paying tithing for these very sacred castles and the church members believing they have exclusive rights to salvation makes them very similar to rich people going to a country club in mindset. I remember in Sunday school, on occasion scoffing at and making fun of others of other religions because they didn't have the full truth. Sure, on the outside, proselytizing efforts make it seem like they wish to share these truths with everyone but within the ranks, they look down on others and think highly of themselves .

It's also pervasive in the church itself. If you have sinned and have not been able to get a temple recommend or had it taken away, even if you are making strides to repent and get on the right track with your bishop, if others are going on a ward temple trip and you are unable to go, it is seen by others as you being lesser than them. Everything is like that, from drinking caffeinated drinks to how much scripture study or family home evening you do, it is a reflection to others on how high up in God's kingdom you are.

So, if you haven't paid a full tithe because you've been having trouble at your job and the Bishop doesn't let you have a recommend, others look down on you as if you'd committed a sin against chastity or adultery. They don't know the reasons why you didn't get a recommend but they make those judgements all the same.

Anyway, this might have gotten a bit off topic, I just now realized.

 

[mmksparbud]

a copy of his paycheck, you say?

that does sound like surveillance.

Exactly---that why he left, he also quite his job--there were Mormons there who helped with this and he wanted to get away from all of it.

 

[He is the way]

I had a Mormon brother in law---for a very short time. One day a bishop came knocking on his door, demanding to know why he was not paying his proper tithe. That was the final straw. he threw the guy out and left the church that day. They guy had a copy of his pay check! He had been thinking about leaving virtually from the day he joined!
But I must add that we believe in paying tithe---but there is no tithe police! It is up to us. For years I didn't, now, I always do. I do much better financially paying my tithe.

I have never heard of any bishop going to someone's house and demanding to know why they were not paying a full tithe before. I am not saying it didn't happen, but it has not happened in any ward I've belonged to.

 

[He is the way]

I'm not being flippant here, I'm interested in how these things work.

if it's just a matter of declaring your own worthiness,
it seems like it would take less time to arrive for your time slot,
say, "I'm worthy to enter",
and that's it.

that would actually take less time than examining a temple recommend card, I think.

Perhaps if you could see the whole process you would see why we do it the way we do.

 

[He is the way]

I agree that it is good to financially support God's work.

I think giving money to God can be done informally,
such as giving money to a homeless person,
just as well as formally,
such as giving money to an institution.

as I see it, giving money is a good work that a person may do
because
they have received eternal life,

not
in order to obtain
eternal life.

I believe we receive eternal life through obedience. Jesus said obedience to the commandments gives us eternal life.

 

[He is the way]

a copy of his paycheck, you say?

that does sound like surveillance.

Bishops do not have copies of our paychecks.

 

[He is the way]

Exactly---that why he left, he also quite his job--there were Mormons there who helped with this and he wanted to get away from all of it.

Bishops do not have people's paycheck stubs nor do they ask members to find out about who earns what. That being said wards do help people with financial problems to get the food and essentials they need to survive. They may also help them to overcome their financial situation.

 

[mmksparbud]

I have never heard of any bishop going to someone's house and demanding to know why they were not paying a full tithe before. I am not saying it didn't happen, but it has not happened in any ward I've belonged to.

That is what he told me. And that was about 45 years ago. I was not interested in Mormonism then at all. In fact, I was totally not interested in anything about religion then. It was the husband of my 1st husbands oldest sister. That side of the family had some Mormons. My 1st husbands father was a senator in Utah and a Mormon. There was no reason for him to lie to me and his wife verified it.

 

[mmksparbud]

Bishops do not have people's paycheck stubs nor do they ask members to find out about who earns what. That being said wards do help people with financial problems to get the food and essentials they need to survive. They may also help them to overcome their financial situation.

This was the experience of my brother in law. He had no reason to lie to me. I believed him. And It didn't care at all about Mormonism then. I can't call him up and ask about it again, He died some time ago. And I can't call his wife either---she died several years before he did and he remarried. Why would he make that up?

 

[He is the way]

This was the experience of my brother in law. He had no reason to lie to me. I believed him. And It didn't care at all about Mormonism then. IU can't call him up and ask about it again, He died some time ago. And I can't call his wife either---she died several years before he did and he remarried. Why would he make that up?

I'll ask him when I see him on the other side. I am sure bishops, who are NOT paid for their service as bishops, do not keep tabs on what their members are being paid. There is no reason for them to do so. Bishops are busy enough with their own jobs and family plus their own duties as bishops to keep tabs on what their members are getting paid. Neither are companies going to give out that information.

 

[mmksparbud]

I'll ask him when I see him on the other side. I am sure bishops, who are NOT paid for their service as bishops, do not keep tabs on what their members are being paid. There is no reason for them to do so. Bishops are busy enough with their own jobs and family plus their own duties as bishops to keep tabs on what their members are getting paid. Neither are companies going to give out that information.

I don't care what you say. My brother in law was not a liar. Believe what you want. You were not there. I will take his word for it. His superiors were also Mormons. So, yah---I believe him. There was no reason for him to lie to me. You, on the other hand, would not admit this even if you had been the bishop doing it!!

 

[Leaf473]

Indeed. There is an air of pride and arrogance that is pervasive in Mormon culture, particularly areas with a high density of Mormons like Utah and Idaho. I was taught while in the church that out of all the churches on Earth, the LDS had exclusive possession of Christ's true gospel. You couldn't just be a member of any other Christian church and still be considered part of the kingdom. Apparently, that was one of the precious truths that musta been taken out of the Bible, where Christ said, "All who believe in me are saved...but you also gotta do it super specifically right, otherwise it doesn't count." There's also the priesthood which requires special keys to be passed down to worthy men when they are called to offices of power. So, paying tithing for these very sacred castles and the church members believing they have exclusive rights to salvation makes them very similar to rich people going to a country club in mindset. I remember in Sunday school, on occasion scoffing at and making fun of others of other religions because they didn't have the full truth. Sure, on the outside, proselytizing efforts make it seem like they wish to share these truths with everyone but within the ranks, they look down on others and think highly of themselves .

It's also pervasive in the church itself. If you have sinned and have not been able to get a temple recommend or had it taken away, even if you are making strides to repent and get on the right track with your bishop, if others are going on a ward temple trip and you are unable to go, it is seen by others as you being lesser than them. Everything is like that, from drinking caffeinated drinks to how much scripture study or family home evening you do, it is a reflection to others on how high up in God's kingdom you are.

So, if you haven't paid a full tithe because you've been having trouble at your job and the Bishop doesn't let you have a recommend, others look down on you as if you'd committed a sin against chastity or adultery. They don't know the reasons why you didn't get a recommend but they make those judgements all the same.

Anyway, this might have gotten a bit off topic, I just now realized.

well, on topic or not thank you very much for a fascinating telling of your experiences as an LDS!

it seems to me that there are many passages in the Bible that present salvation in a simple way, such as this in acts 2
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

groups that want to be highly exclusive will say something like:
calling on the name of the Lord isn't as simple as it sounds, it actually involves, well, a long list of rules.

so it sounds like if the "bus" is leaving for the temple and you're not on it, there's a temptation among the others to speculate why, at least to themselves.
and I guess it's not enough just to say to the bishop,
"yes, I messed up, and I repent. Please sign my card now."

 

[Leaf473]

Exactly---that why he left, he also quite his job--there were Mormons there who helped with this and he wanted to get away from all of it.

sounds like a kind of invasion of privacy.

I remember years ago an ex-LDS describing her anointing, saying she felt her privacy had been compromised.

on the plus side from an LDS perspective, if a person agrees to those "invasions" it kind of "raises the bar" if they consider leaving.
I mean that if a person is more psychologically invested, they're less likely to leave it all behind.

 

[Leaf473]

I have never heard of any bishop going to someone's house and demanding to know why they were not paying a full tithe before. I am not saying it didn't happen, but it has not happened in any ward I've belonged to.

is it your experience that the tithes are paid directly to the bishop?
are special slips of paper involved, and are careful records kept?

during the temple recommend interview, will a bishop just take the person's word for it that they are a full tithe payer?
if so, why the slips of paper and careful record keeping (if that is done).

 

[Leaf473]

Perhaps if you could see the whole process you would see why we do it the way we do.

I believe we were talking about this all because you had posted the quote from first Corinthians 11 where it talks about a man examining himself.

and I believe we talked about the idea of declaring your own worthiness.

but I'm getting a picture of something much more complicated than simply declaring one's own worthiness.

it doesn't really sound like
let a person examine him/herself.

 

[mmksparbud]

sounds like a kind of invasion of privacy.

I remember years ago an ex-LDS describing her anointing, saying she felt her privacy had been compromised.

on the plus side from an LDS perspective, if a person agrees to those "invasions" it kind of "raises the bar" if they consider leaving.
I mean that if a person is more psychologically invested, they're less likely to leave it all behind.

Yes, and this was a small town in Utah---a Mormon town, even the cops were Mormon and closed. Meaning no alcohol was sold. Everyone got around that by going to the next town that was not closed! First time I had ever heard of a "closed" town. They said it was funny to drive down the streets on trash day, they'd have the bottles piled on top of the trash like a gigantic pyramid!! Nobody fessed up to the drinking. The sanitation guys knew, and reported them. But the just said it was the non-Mormon who drove by and emptied their bottles in their trash! There were very few non-Mormons, and they, like my brother-in-law and his wife, usually left. They came here, to Las Vegas! Definitely not "closed."

 

[Leaf473]

I believe we receive eternal life through obedience. Jesus said obedience to the commandments gives us eternal life.

if you're referring to the story of the Rich Young ruler, he thinks he has kept all the commandments.
Jesus tells them there's still more.

imo, that's the difficulty with trying to get eternal life by following a set of rules.
no one ever does it fully or completely.
I think that's what the story of the Rich Young ruler tells us.

New Living Translation
Romans 3 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law (or any other set of rules, imo) commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

I would much rather be in the shoes of the Samaritan woman than the young ruler.
John 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."

(I think Jesus is using living water here to symbolize eternal life.)
the woman is not "living right" either by the "biggie" commandments or the "jots and tittles".

Jesus says,
"ask me".