LDS Joseph Smith Started a False Religion

Danthemailman · Jan 7, 2018

It’s been said that the whole Mormon movement is based on the wild delusions of a young man, goaded by occult spirits by which he and his family had become all too familiar.

The Mormon church examined and refuted!

Jane_Doe · Jan 7, 2018

Danthemailman said:
It’s been said that the whole Mormon movement is based on the wild delusions of a young man, goaded by occult spirits by which he and his family had become all too familiar.

It's also been said that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's own Church here on the Earth, lead by modern day prophets.

Frankly, people saying this or that doesn't prove anything (everyone has an view). Rather, if a person wishes to know the Truth for themselves, they should not look to asking man's opinion, but asking the Lord Himself.

Danthemailman · Jan 7, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
It's also been said that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's own Church here on the Earth, lead by modern day prophets.

Frankly, people saying this or that doesn't prove anything (everyone has an view). Rather, if a person wishes to know the Truth for themselves, they should not look to asking man's opinion, but asking the Lord Himself.

Don’t be deceived. God’s Word refutes the claims of Mormonism.

What is Mormonism? What do Mormons believe?

Jane_Doe · Jan 7, 2018

Danthemailman said:
Don’t be deceived. God’s Word refutes the claims of Mormonism.

What is Mormonism? What do Mormons believe?

FYI: that website incorrect about what LDS beliefs are.

For example, LDS 100% believe the following: "Clearly, there is only one way to receive salvation and that is to know God and His Son, Jesus (John 17:3). Receiving salvation is not done by works but by faith (Romans 1:17; 3:28). We can receive this gift no matter who we are or what we have done (Romans 3:22). “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)."

If you care, I can elaborate more. If you don't, heh that's your choice.

Rescued One · Jan 7, 2018

mmksparbud · Jan 7, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
FYI: that website incorrect about what LDS beliefs are.

For example, LDS 100% believe the following: "Clearly, there is only one way to receive salvation and that is to know God and His Son, Jesus (John 17:3). Receiving salvation is not done by works but by faith (Romans 1:17; 3:28). We can receive this gift no matter who we are or what we have done (Romans 3:22). “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)."

If you care, I can elaborate more. If you don't, heh that's your choice.

They always say that--they accuse of slander when the truth is being spoken. If you say that they believe they become God and they will have wives and a bunch of children---they say it's a lie. When you look it up in their own literature---that is exactly what they believe. Than they say that you are pinpointing things that are only unimportant---when you read the literature it says that is the very first thing that as God they will be doing and then they say the word God is with a small "g" but when you look it up---it is with a capital G--God. That is why so many people go to the anti-Mormon sites, because they are not just upfront with their believes. They believe God was human before becoming God, and so we can be Gods too. The bible says There is no other God and never will be. They go through all sort of verbal gymnastics trying to sound mainline Christian, constantly state that others are not speaking the truth, but when you find out---yes they are!! It is quite tiresome and irksome and they should just be open and upfront about those believes. That is how they get people in there. They cloak their real, core believes to look Christian and it can take years for the unwary to find the truth. Then they leave.
LDS scripture Pearl of Great Price quotes Eve as saying:

“Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11)

The Book of Mormon gives the same explanation:

“And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who oweth all things. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:22-25).

Their Green Apron ceremony celebrates this---but they deny they celebrate that were it not for Satan, we would never have had children and been truly happy. It's so frustrating to constantly hear how they are misquoted and lied about yet when examined---it's the truth! They actually believe that Adam and Eve would never have had children (even though God told them to be fruitful and multiply)They would have disobeyed God by staying celibate---yah--right.
They say we pay too much attention to the "differences" between them and Christianity and not enough on the similarities. As I've said before---it is not the similarities that tell the difference between a fake Rembrandt and a real one. No matter how beautiful and similar the fake it to the real, it is the real that one wants and certainly when it comes to knowing God and what He thinks. They say the bible is not accurate--it is corrupt--then they say they believe in the bible as the word of God. But the writings of JS are also the word of God, and when they differ--it's his word that counts, not the bible.
This is not to say that the people are bad---it is this whole concept of the bible is corrupt and JS isn't and it's what he says that matters and it truth. They have bought an untruth, a fake. Their biggest mistake is in throwing out the bible--that is what JS had to do to make his words sound like truth. That's like throwing out the real Rembrandt so the fake looks more real.

Almost there · Jan 8, 2018

Ironhold said:
Those critics of the church making the negative assertion do indeed have the burden of proof on this one.

I disagree with that.

When someone says they saw something, I need some sort of proof that they did. And I also apply the phrase, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

BTW, I notice the title of the thread now has a blue "LDS" button on it. Does that change anything?

Rescued One · Jan 8, 2018

Almost there said:
BTW, I notice the title of the thread now has a blue "LDS" button on it. Does that change anything?

No, I put that "LDS" in front of most of my posts so that people know I'm talking about Mormonism. It was there all along, I think.

Danthemailman · Jan 8, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
FYI: that website incorrect about what LDS beliefs are.

For example, LDS 100% believe the following: "Clearly, there is only one way to receive salvation and that is to know God and His Son, Jesus (John 17:3). Receiving salvation is not done by works but by faith (Romans 1:17; 3:28). We can receive this gift no matter who we are or what we have done (Romans 3:22). “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)."

If you care, I can elaborate more. If you don't, heh that's your choice.

I have relatives who are former RLDS and LDS members and they completely disagree with you about the Mormon doctrine of salvation. My wife who is a former RLDS member sat down one night several years ago and compared the Bible with the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants after reading a book entitled: "RLDS church: Christian? or Cult?" and her eyes were opened to the truth. The woman who wrote that book (a former member of the RLDS church for over 30 years) also has a website. Mormon doctrine of salvation does not line up with Christian doctrine of salvation.

Lifeline Ministries to RLDS » Works Salvation

Almost there · Jan 8, 2018

Danthemailman said:
I have relatives who are former RLDS and LDS members and they completely disagree with you about the Mormon doctrine of salvation. My wife who is a former RLDS member sat down one night several years ago and compared the Bible with the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants after reading a book entitled: "RLDS church: Christian? or Cult?" and her eyes were opened to the truth. The woman who wrote that book (a former member of the RLDS church for over 30 years) also has a website. Mormon doctrine of salvation does not line up with Christian doctrine of salvation.

Lifeline Ministries to RLDS » Works Salvation

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of Mormons do not fully understand what their church actually teaches. However, this is not unique to Mormons and Mormonism. I see that in most churches to one degree or another. But this is why I've found that often I will be arguing with a Mormon about what Mormons believe because I've studied a particular teaching of their religion that they've really not studied. they've only heard the high level descriptions.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it is like two guys having the same three top priorities in their life: Family, job and health. And one would think that those two men have the same values and probably a similar quality of life. Ah, but the devil's in the details. One says to the other, "Man, we're very similar culturally. I believe family comes first, Health second, and job third." And the second guy says, "Yeah. I believe that Job comes first, health second and family third. So how come your family seems so happy but I'm getting a divorce?"

i.e. a lot of church members read or hear what their church (or some other church) believes, but fails to get into the actual details beyond the "bullet point" descriptions. And when many of them do, organizations like ex-mormon.org are born.

Rescued One · Jan 8, 2018

The TRUTH:

Eternal life according to Mormonism has to be EARNED.

In Mormonism, all blessings must be earned. They can't come here and say that their scriptures aren't true. No one will believe that Mormons don't claim those words came from God. I've gone over this again and again during the past fifteen years.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

D&C 130:20–21. What Is the Law on Which All Blessings from God Depend?
Obedience is the basic law of heaven, and obedience to specific laws will result in specific blessings, culminating in the greatest blessing, as Elder Marion G. Romney explained: “The perfection upon which exaltation hangs, I repeat, is an individual matter. It is conditioned upon the observance of celestial laws as they apply to earth life. The Word of Wisdom is one of them, so also are chastity, tithing, observance of the Sabbath day, prayer, honesty, industry, love of God and fellow men, patience, kindness, charity, and all the rest of the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Each individual who observes one or more of these laws shall receive the blessings predicated thereon, and each Church member who will, with all the energy of his soul, diligently strive to live them all, shall receive the blessings predicated upon such striving. Eternal life, the greatest gift of God, is that blessing, and it will follow the living of the gospel as the night the day, regardless of statistics or averages, or of what others think or say or do.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1956, pp. 15–16; see also Enrichment G in the Appendix.)
“Section 130, Items of Instruction,” Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (2002), 321–24

I've posted parts of Enrichment G in several threads so I won't do it again in this post.

But to be exalted one must keep the whole[Mormon] law. This is the great love he shows forth for his children: notwithstanding they sin and close their eyes against the truth, yet his arm is stretched out still, and he will feel after them and bring them back if they will keep his commandments; and if not, he will do for them just the best he can. Is going to bless them with all it is possible to give, and all shall be saved[resurrected]; all others will receive a place somewhere and it will be glorious unto them, but to receive the exaltation of the righteous, in other words eternal life, the commandments of the Lord must be kept in all things.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:6

“There will be a wise and just God to sit in judgment on all men. … The wicked may prosper for a time, the rebellious may seem to profit by their transgressions, but the time is coming when, at the bar of justice, all men will be judged, ‘every man according to their works’ (Rev. 20:13). No one will ‘get by’ with anything. On that day no one will escape the penalty of his deeds, no one will fail to receive the blessings he has earned. Again, the parable of the sheep and the goats gives us assurance that there will be total justice.”
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 304–5

“The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life.”
Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2006, p.42

“Now, brethren and sisters, somebody said in this conference that the same laws apply, the same rules govern today, and it is just as necessary for us to keep the commandments of our Heavenly Father today as it was for any of the prophets of old or any of his faithful sons and daughters who have lived upon the earth, who have earned a right to a place in the celestial kingdom. We can’t gain our exaltation by the good lives of our neighbors, but we can profit by their good example, and we can improve ourselves.”
Eighth President George Albert Smith, Conference Reports, April 1948, pp.162-163

“We are living eternal life, and our position hereafter will be the result of our lives here. Every man will be judged according to his works, and he will receive only that degree of glory that he has earned. (Conference Reports, April 1945, p. 139.)”
The Teachings of George Albert Smith, p.30

“Our Master Teacher, the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, has also given us a simple formula, and there is a price to pay as well. His plan for us, and His doctrine, is clear and concise. He does not give trick questions, and He does not grade on the curve. He clearly wants everyone to live with Him in the Celestial Kingdom for He has stated:
“For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.1
“However, we must earn the privilege to do so.”
Elder Mervyn B. Arnold, Our Book of Life, Brigham Young University–Idaho Devotional, January 29, 2008

In order to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom, we must gain the trust of the Lord here on earth. We gain the trust of the Lord through earning it, and that is accomplished through our actual performance in living His gospel and keeping our covenants. In other words, we earn the trust of the Lord by doing His will.
Richard J. Maynes, “Keeping Our Covenants,” Ensign, Nov 2004, 92

"Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality."
Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14

I could continue with these quotes, but I think I've made it clear.

BigDaddy4 · Jan 8, 2018

Ironhold said:
The full name of the church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".

Do you dispute this?

Do you dispute that your founder and other early leaders believed Christianity was "all wrong", "corrupt", and an "abomination", etc? And that those leaders tried to distance themselves from Christianity? Even the late Gordon Hinckley said the lds and Christianity believe in a different Christ.

Jane_Doe · Jan 8, 2018

Danthemailman said:
I have relatives who are former RLDS and LDS members and they completely disagree with you about the Mormon doctrine of salvation. My wife who is a former RLDS member sat down one night several years ago and compared the Bible with the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants after reading a book entitled: "RLDS church: Christian? or Cult?" and her eyes were opened to the truth. The woman who wrote that book (a former member of the RLDS church for over 30 years) also has a website. Mormon doctrine of salvation does not line up with Christian doctrine of salvation.

Lifeline Ministries to RLDS » Works Salvation

You're being silly here. RLDS and LDS churches are two very different things. If you want to understand real LDS doctrine, I'm happy to explain it to you. If you want to talk about Christ or hear about my relationship with Him, I'm happy to have that conversation with you. But with all do respect I'm not interested in having you "inform" me about "my" RLDS beliefs.

BigDaddy4 · Jan 8, 2018

Ironhold said:
No, and in fact that was officially and actively rejected circa 1980.

Anyone who tries to use his as an argument against the modern body of the church is merely showing that they're 40 years behind.

Nice try. It was a foundational element to your religion, right out of your own scriptures. Changing "white" to "pure" doesn't change that fact. Neither does some declaration in 1980 take away the previous 150 years of practice.

BigDaddy4 · Jan 8, 2018

Ironhold said:
We've been over this before.

Quick links, with there being so much more than this -

Book of Mormon Evidences, Part One: Not Proof, But Indications of Plausibility

Response to the Smithsonian Institute Statement on the Book of Mormon

Book of Mormon Problems: Plants and Animals

Basically, even the Smithsonian had to back down from an assertion about what was or wasn't present after it was proven that they weren't up on the most recent discoveries.

Still waiting for some actual proof. Plausibility is not proof.

Jane_Doe · Jan 8, 2018

Almost there said:
One thing I've noticed is that a lot of Mormons do not fully understand what their church actually teaches.

How is this statement not hugely arrogant?

Should I walk into a Baptist church and tell everyone there that I know what Baptists believe better than Baptists? Or tell a Methodists "well, you don't really believe that. Here's what you really believe..." Oh yeah, and don't forget do this all while saying "I'm the real Christian here, you should be just like me".

No. Just no.

BigDaddy4 · Jan 8, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
FYI: that website incorrect about what LDS beliefs are.

For example, LDS 100% believe the following: "Clearly, there is only one way to receive salvation and that is to know God and His Son, Jesus (John 17:3). Receiving salvation is not done by works but by faith (Romans 1:17; 3:28). We can receive this gift no matter who we are or what we have done (Romans 3:22). “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)."

If you care, I can elaborate more. If you don't, heh that's your choice.

Show us what is incorrect. Name one or two things.

You are still being deceitful about what the lds teach. The lds must be obediant to receive salvation and blessings.

"Ultimately our obedience can lead to eternal life in the presence of Heavenly Father."
What blessings does Heavenly Father promise if I obey the commandments?

D&C130:20-21:
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

BigDaddy4 · Jan 8, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
How is this statement not hugely arrogant?

Should I walk into a Baptist church and tell everyone there that I know what Baptists believe better than Baptists? Or tell a Methodists "well, you don't really believe that. Here's what you really believe..." Oh yeah, and don't forget do this all while saying "I'm the real Christian here, you should be just like me".

No. Just no.

Unfortunately, you demonstrate it constantly. See previous post. What you state the lds believe vs. what the lds actually teach, as can be found on lds.org and various official lds publications (i.e, teaching manuals, priesthood manuals, etc.), do not necessarily agree with each other.

Almost there · Jan 8, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
How is this statement not hugely arrogant?

Sorry. I point a finger at myself when I say that. This is why I said it about Christian churches as well. And I have personally left churches because I thought they taught one thing but when we got into the details, I realized we disagreed.

I was really describing the human condition, as opposed to trying to point a finger at anyone specifically.

Jane_Doe · Jan 8, 2018

Almost there said:
Sorry. I point a finger at myself when I say that. This is why I said it about Christian churches as well. And I have personally left churches because I thought they taught one thing but when we got into the details, I realized we disagreed.

I was really describing the human condition, as opposed to trying to point a finger at anyone specifically.

I apologize-- I was wrong to have gotten on your case. I jumped in anger and old "here we go again" and misunderstood what you were saying (which was actually very fair and perspective). Again, my apologies.

LDS Joseph Smith Started a False Religion

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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