Joseph Smith, Polygamy, So what?

[A New Dawn]

I'm not twisting anything. Joseph Smith was not inspired of God, therefore he was not a prophet of God either. His record of written and spoken statements prove that. Therefore, what does what you've stated contribute to counter that fact?

/jenda shakes her head. Someone is not following the conversation, and it isn't me.

All I've stated is that it is your opinion that he was not a prophet. I believe the BoM to be ample evidence to the contrary. I also believe the revelations he received prior to 1836 (or so) to be evidence to the contrary.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, wrong as they may be. You are no exception.

 

[Romans5:1]

/jenda shakes her head. Someone is not following the conversation, and it isn't me.

Perhaps if the same someone would quit shaking her head, while speaking in generalities, especially when asked for specifics, then it would not appear to her that everyone else is not following the conversation.

All I've stated is that it is your opinion that he was not a prophet.

It's not just my "opinion."

I believe the BoM to be ample evidence to the contrary. I also believe the revelations he received prior to 1836 (or so) to be evidence to the contrary.

Again, broad, ranging generalities that mean absolutely nothing. How about something more specific to support your "opinion?"

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, wrong as they may be. You are no exception.

Pardon me, but I've already given specifics regarding ol' Jo's Civil War "prophecy," which showed how much in error that he was. Apart from the usual, broad, ranging generalities, what have you given to support your "opinion?"

 

[Zippythepinhead]

What questions are you talking about? Furthermore, as already stated, what he "prophesied" was nothing more than what any non-prophet could have done, and he was about as accurate, meaning, he was not.

First see above post. There were many people predicting that the slavery question was dividing the Union, and that conflict might eventually erupt. But prediction is different than prophecy. To nail South Carolina as the birthplace of the rebellion( first state to suceed and fire the first shots at FT Sumter ). That is more than just coincidence.

 

[Romans5:1]

First see above post.

How about you just tell me what you're talking about?

There were many people predicting that the slavery question was dividing the Union, and that conflict might eventually erupt. But prediction is different than prophecy. To nail South Carolina as the birthplace of the rebellion( first state to suceed and fire the first shots at FT Sumter ). That is more than just coincidence.

Prediction is different than prophecy? Please explain.

Regardless, you still have not accounted for the many things that Joseph Smith "prophesied" about the Civil War that never came to pass. Why not? What kind of prophet is that?

 

[Zippythepinhead]

Actually, they don't.

Correction noted. Researched Mosque and agree.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

How about you just tell me what you're talking about?



Prediction is different than prophecy? Please explain.

Regardless, you still have not accounted for the many things that Joseph Smith "prophesied" about the Civil War that never came to pass. Why not? What kind of prophet is that?

First, a prediction is a guess that something will happen. Prophecy is actually receiving revelation from God. For instance, I can predict the weather will be sunny with all my computer stuff and instruments. But there is still a chance for error.

Prophecy, revelation coming from God is truth about a given subject. In this case the Civil War. I may not be getting your entire query so please feel free to expound. I very well could have missed something. But one last note, all prophecy does not have to be fulfilled in a prophet's lifetime. The word that comes from a prophet, when speaking for God, is the word of God. God will fulfill all prophecy as He sees fit in time and manner.

 

[stinkyjoe]

Let me say that efforts have been made to try and get the Mormons to discuss the person of God, but very little comes forth from them, apart from many vagaries and generalities that are simple repeats of something written or said by their favorite Mormon writer. When presented with blatantly contradictory material showing just how different the Mormon God is from the one of biblical revelation, the typical response either agnostic in nature, or a further false conclusion is drawn by assuming that what is quoted is somehow misunderstood, and that everyone is still speaking about the same God.

You're right about that. I asked some mormon missionaries about that the other day and they just dodged the question. I haven't seen any Mormons say anything about that subject on this forum. Why is that?

What are you referring to which leads you to conclude that the Bible is contradictory on the person of God?

I will answer in a private message so as not to derail the thread.

 

[unbound]

Stinkyjoe, if you are thinking about joining Mormonism, please keep studying first. My conclusion is the reason why Mormonism exists is to take from us what has already been given.


D&C 130:3

3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

You can see from the above that Mr.Smith wants you to trade in a direct realtionship with Christ for a bag full of tokens.

 

[stinkyjoe]

Stinkyjoe, if you are thinking about joining Mormonism, please keep studying first. My conclusion is the reason why Mormonism exists is to take from us what has already been given.


D&C 130:3

3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

You can see from the above that Mr.Smith wants you to trade in a direct realtionship with Christ for a bag full of tokens.

Actually, I am considering it, and yes, I will study much more before I make a decision. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Romans5:1]

First, a prediction is a guess that something will happen. Prophecy is actually receiving revelation from God. For instance, I can predict the weather will be sunny with all my computer stuff and instruments. But there is still a chance for error.

How can either a prediction or prophecy that comes directly from God contain even a "chance for error," though?

Prophecy, revelation coming from God is truth about a given subject. In this case the Civil War. I may not be getting your entire query so please feel free to expound. I very well could have missed something. But one last note, all prophecy does not have to be fulfilled in a prophet's lifetime. The word that comes from a prophet, when speaking for God, is the word of God. God will fulfill all prophecy as He sees fit in time and manner.

Sorry, but there is no possibility that what Joseph Smith predicted/prophesied about the Civil War will come true as he claimed. Therefore, how do you reconcile that with your definition of prophecy, which is acceptable at this point, and him being a prophet of God?

 

[Romans5:1]

You're right about that. I asked some mormon missionaries about that the other day and they just dodged the question. I haven't seen any Mormons say anything about that subject on this forum. Why is that?

There could be several explanations. One, Mormons often do not know what the Bible says about such topics. Two, Mormons have it inculcated into them that a contemporary word about a particular topic somehow supercedes a previous revelation, or that the previous revelation is fraught with error or distortion. The problem, though, with the latter view is that it is typically loaded with heresay explanations not based in fact, but hostile prejudice. Objectivity is typically missing, with subjectivity taking its place being fueled by human emotion. Third, massive contradictions are avoided in order to promote "faith" rather than destroy it. This is called by some in secular studies, "cognitive dissonance." I could go on, but I think you get the gist.

I will answer in a private message so as not to derail the thread.

I received your message, and will reply shortly. Thanks.

 

[fatboys]

You're right about that. I asked some mormon missionaries about that the other day and they just dodged the question. I haven't seen any Mormons say anything about that subject on this forum. Why is that?



I will answer in a private message so as not to derail the thread.

FB: You will notice that the critics jump around so much that it is hard to stay focused on topic. When an answer is given they bring up about ten more questions that does not relate to the topic. As you have seen here many times we believe that God the Father is the Almighty God, and that he called Joseph Smith before he was born, as did he other prophets.
Our understanding of the character of God is different than the man made creeds that mainstream Christianity cling to. This does not bother me, and because they believe in a unbiblical God is their perception of God. The important thing to remembers is that God revealed himself to a young boy. During this vision, the Young Boy, Joseph Smith knew that God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ were not one, but two seperate beings. And that they knew who he was. THey called him by name.

The scriptures teach that Jesus and his Father are seperate. Jesus said many times that he was not doing his own will, but the will of the Father. Well if they were the same person, why would Christ say that? Anyway got to go.

 

[Aceman1992]

Plural marriage only became an issue during the time of Brigham Young and continued to escalate. It was only announced to the general membership of the church in 1852.

I couldn't help but notice this thread. Bringing things back on topic, Swart had some good words. Let me add something that I hope can clarify the original question. Joseph Smith never advocated polygamy and never practiced polygamy or "spiritual wifeism" as the references below will attest.

When the General Assembly of the church met at Kirtland, Ohio August 17, 1835, under the direction of Joseph Smith, the church's stand and belief in monogamy was confirmed by the unanimous adoption of the following statement which was ordered to be printed in the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants:



"Inasmuch as the Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe that one man shuld have one wife; and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again."



In Section 111 of the RLDS Doctrine and Covenants, it still states:

[Sec 111:2a] Marriage should be celebrated with prayer and thanksgiving; and at the solemnization, the persons to be married, standing together, the man on the right, and the woman on the left, shall be addressed, by the person officiating, as he shall be directed by the Holy Spirit; and if there be no legal objections, he shall say, calling each by their names:

[Sec 111:2b] "You both mutually agree to be each other's companion, husband and wife, observing the legal rights belonging to this condition; that is, keeping yourselves wholly for each other, and from all others, during your lives?"



This section was removed by the LDS church in their Doctrines and Covenants in 1876 to be replaced with Section 132, the document of the plurality of wives. As a note, the RLDS has retained the original section 111.



During the Nauvoo period, 1842, Dr. John C. Bennett attempted to promote the practice of “spiritual wifeism” and consequently was expelled from the church. Dr. Bennett later asked forgiveness and made a sworn statement before Nauvoo Alderman Daniel H. Wells that Joseph Smith never had anything to do with his practice of “spiritual wifeism”. Twelve members of the church confirmed in an article in the Times and Seasons that Dr. Bennett made up “spritual wifeism”.



From the Book of Mormon:



Ether 10:5 [RLDS Ether 4:48] And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, ...



Jacob 3:5 [RLDS Jacob 2:54-55] Behold, the Lamanites, your brethren, whom ye hate, because of their filthiness and the cursings which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; For they have not forgotten the commandments of the Lord, which were given unto our fathers, that they should have, save it were one wife: and concubines they should have none; and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

 

[Swart]

I couldn't help but notice this thread. Bringing things back on topic, Swart had some good words. Let me add something that I hope can clarify the original question. Joseph Smith never advocated polygamy and never practiced polygamy or "spiritual wifeism" as the references below will attest.

Aceman, are you CoC or RLDS by any chance?

 

[A New Dawn]

Aceman, are you CoC or RLDS by any chance?

If you are (or even if you aren't ) I'm pleased to make your acquaintance.

 

[Aceman1992]

Church of Jesus Christ (Restoration Branch). Glad to make all of your acquaintances. For my own benefit, I'm currently doing research on the various issues mainstream Christian denominations have with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, so I like to keep my posts as factual and provable as I can. I'm more than happy to share the things that I've found if they fit a thread topic.

 

[A New Dawn]

Church of Jesus Christ (Restoration Branch). Glad to make all of your acquaintances. For my own benefit, I'm currently doing research on the various issues mainstream Christian denominations have with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, so I like to keep my posts as factual and provable as I can. I'm more than happy to share the things that I've found if they fit a thread topic.

Hey, me too! Which one? I get to the Albany Restoration Branch occasionally, it is 2.5 hours from where I live, so I only get there occasionally. I do consider Zarahemla Restoration Branch in Independence my home branch.

Was hoping another Restorationist would pop in!

 

[Zippythepinhead]

Church of Jesus Christ (Restoration Branch). Glad to make all of your acquaintances. For my own benefit, I'm currently doing research on the various issues mainstream Christian denominations have with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, so I like to keep my posts as factual and provable as I can. I'm more than happy to share the things that I've found if they fit a thread topic.

Good to see you ACE. Welcome to UT forum. You will find us a most lively bunch!

 

[Swart]

Good to see you ACE. Welcome to UT forum. You will find us a most lively bunch!

I think all those reps must have gone to your head Zippy.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

I think all those reps must have gone to your head Zippy.

I think that I am guilty of pride and must needs be in repentance. LOL.