Jonathan Fisk, youtube, and many other things

[Moses Medina]

Daniel, thanks for the reply. I have since joined the LCMS since post in this thread. Ill be looking further into what you wrote since there's alotta good stuff in there. Thanks again.

dario68w,

Rev. Jonathan Fisk is a former Arminian and puts most of his focus there and he's great for really brief and fast paced theology from the Confessional Lutheran viewpoint.

Rev. Jordan Cooper's "Just & Sinnner" Google+ Blogger page is an absolute must for Confessional Lutherans. He has hour long or longer discussions interviewing other denominations and maintaining civil debate; especially with the different denominations of Calvinist (Reformed) and Arminians (Remonstrance).

The Evangelical Church of Germany (EKD) was founded on the Unaltered Augsburg Confession of 1530, drafted by Philipp Melanchthon and Dr. Martin Luther. Dr. Luther fell into poor health in the late 1530's and Melanchthon gained control of the EKD. Melanchthon compromised with John Calvin on key components of EKD's 1530 theology and authored the Altered Augsburg Confession of 1540, which John Calvin signed and accepted as a pack between the Evangelicals under Luther and Reformed under Calvin. Philippists were known as the followers of Philipp Melanchthon's 1540 Confession; because of the compromises made with John Calvin, they were also known as Crypto-Calvinist. Philipp Melanchthon compromised again in his Re-Altered Augsburg Confession of 1542 with the Papacy and Holy Roman Empire.

Evangelicals more aligned to the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther over that of the Philippists (Crypto-Calvinist) began to resist challenges to their doctrine. After Dr. Martin Luther's death, it took nearly 40-yrs to draft an actual doctrine within the (UAC) Unaltered Augsburg Confession of 1530. The Formula of Concord in 1580 resulted in the Triglotta Concordance becoming the official doctrine of Orthodox Lutheranism. In 1580 we see the 1st "Lutheran" congregations forming into existence apart from the EKD's Philippists (Crypto-Calvinist), approximately 40-yrs after Dr. Martin Luther's death.

WELS, CLC, and LCMS are Confessional Lutherans to the Unaltered Augsburg Confession of 1530 alone and don't accept the 1540 or 1542 confessions as doctrinal benefits under our Book of Concord.

The EKD was confiscated by the Prussian government in the late 1700's and made the State's religion; changing the EKD's congregational name to the Prussian Union. In the early 1800's the Prussian Union created their government based Church in the US under their German Evangelical Synod, but changed their name later to Evangelical Synod of North America. They are neither Lutheran or Calvinist, but used hybrid catechisms from both religions and some are known as Reformed Lutheran or Crypto-Calvinist to this day. In the 1900's they changed their name to the United Church of Christ (UCC); which is mistakenly confused with the 2nd Baptist (Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ) or even some Mormon groups with very similar names.

When selecting a LCMS congregation it's especially important that they publicly confess to the UAC of 1530; some have slipped away over time and just go through the motions. It's a long held tradition in the LCMS and WELS to put UAC on their Church's cornerstone, entrance, or sign in public view. It's basically used to demonstrate themselves as a badge of authenticity.

Study free-will extensively as a Lutheran from the Book of Concord; we don't exercise it to the same extent as Roman-Catholics, Eastern-Orthodox, or Arminians; nor do we restrain it to the extent of Calvinist. It's also not appropriate to say we hold to a middle position to the others, because our doctrine is more unique altogether in proper explanation. A Lutheran theologian at Patrick Henry College wrote a good article on the subject:
"The Freewill Issue in Theological Perspective"

Properly understanding Lutheranism's viewpoint on free-will helps a great deal in explaining the 5-points/3-views of divine election (Synod of Dort, 1600's):
Reformed/Calvinists: TULIP
Evangelical/Lutherans: TUURF
Arminian/Arminius: SCURF

Lutheranism: "Divine Election… Predestination A Lutheran Perspective"
also: Christ Our Savior Lutheran Church:resources tab "TULIPSCURFTUURF"
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Universal Atonement
Resistive Faith
Fallibility of the Saints

This should be enough to get you on a level playing field dario68w with Lutheranism in respect to Calvinist or Arminian leanings.

For Lutherans, speaking a foreign language is a gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit. In ACTS we see the crowd acknowledging the Apostles speaking in the Apostles' native tongues, yet the crowd was able to comprehend in their own native tongues. The Holy Spirit, not the Apostles, did all the work as the Apostles didn't speak in any unknown language, but used their own. There's only very brief mentioning of Angelic tongues, but the Holy Scriptures reveal very little about Angelic tongues other than to say we know they exist. The Scriptures thoroughly explain that the Holy Spirit picks and chooses specified gifts to bless upon us at his discretion. Lutherans only take issue with those who believe they can coerce the Holy Spirit against his will to provide specific or all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Scripture indicates that the use of tongues will diminish over time, which is Biblically falling into place through electronic media and consolidation of regimes, and contradicts the position of those who demand the Holy Spirit increases speaking in Angelic tongues.

I hope this helps as you come to understand Confessional Lutheranism.

 

[ContraMundum]

dario68w,

Rev. Jonathan Fisk is a former Arminian and puts most of his focus there and he's great for really brief and fast paced theology from the Confessional Lutheran viewpoint.

All well and good, but Fisk's problem is, and probably always will be, that he always mis-represents other theologies and builds strawmen. While this is standard for many "conservatives" in theology, I hate listening to that kind of garbage.

The rest of your post was good, btw.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

All well and good, but Fisk's problem is, and probably always will be, that he always mis-represents other theologies and builds strawmen. While this is standard for many "conservatives" in theology, I hate listening to that kind of garbage.

The rest of your post was good, btw.

"Always misrepresents other theologies" is an Ad hominem fallacy, so long as your position is against Rev. Fisk, rather than his positions on other theologies. Not knowing your own theological positions against Rev. Fisk's positions simply duplicates another "straw man" fallacy.

Thank you for enjoying the remainder of the post.

 

[ContraMundum]

"Always misrepresents other theologies" is an Ad hominem fallacy, so long as your position is against Rev. Fisk, rather than his positions on other theologies. Not knowing your own theological positions against Rev. Fisk's positions simply duplicates another "straw man" fallacy.

Hardly. The appeal to "fallacies" reads as frankly out of place at CF. Most people here don't fall into your "let's battle each other to the death on the internet" paradigm, which is reminiscent of two billy goats painfully smashing their heads against each other until exhaustion sets in...only later to say "wow, that felt good, let's do it again".

For the record, I know Fisk's doctrine quite well. We are similar in position. It's his constant mis-representation of others and his refusal to address that when confronted by it that distubrs me.

Bottom line: I simply can't be bothered spending time going through Fisk's "hip" videos again to pick out the strawmen he builds against other doctrines apart from his own little world. I leave that to you to discover, learn, research for yourself. You seem capable of that. My life is too precious to waste on pop-theology.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

Hardly. The appeal to "fallacies" reads as frankly out of place at CF. Most people here don't fall into your "let's battle each other to the death on the internet" paradigm, which is reminiscent of two billy goats painfully smashing their heads against each other until exhaustion sets in...only later to say "wow, that felt good, let's do it again".

For the record, I know Fisk's doctrine quite well. We are similar in position. It's his constant mis-representation of others and his refusal to address that when confronted by it that distubrs me.

Bottom line: I simply can't be bothered spending time going through Fisk's "hip" videos again to pick out the strawmen he builds against other doctrines apart from his own little world. I leave that to you to discover, learn, research for yourself. You seem capable of that. My life is too precious to waste on pop-theology.

I appreciate your response and being tactful. The point Rev. Fisk is making, we need to restore the focus back to what God does for us, rather than the various forms of works righteousness pointing to what we do for God.

 

[ContraMundum]

I appreciate your response and being tactful. The point Rev. Fisk is making, we need to restore the focus back to what God does for us, rather than the various forms of works righteousness pointing to what we do for God.

...and I couldn't agree more!

 

[Ladybythelake]

Just a few thoughts from a former LCMS (long story). As a young child in the LCMS, my Dad referred to those trying to convert members of other churches as sheep-stealers. Please don't be one of those. Preach to the unchurched instead. In my county, 50% are unchurched. Even though I attend a non-denom church, I don't try to get members of my old church to attend. If they're interested, I'll invite them. Otherwise, you sound like you believe they attend false churches.

 

[Tangible]

If your concern is to avoid sheep-stealing, wouldn't it be better, instead of inviting them away from their own church, to encourage your LCMS friends to talk to their pastor about why they are not satisfied with Confessional Lutheranism and about what might seem enticing to them in a non-denominational church?

 

[Ladybythelake]

The ones I talked with believe whatever the pastor says, even though they don't listen to the sermons. They tune out. They go to church to make sure the pews don't float away. They will stay until the church closes or until they die.

Just be glad that former Lutherans go to a Christ-centered Bible-Believing church. There are other reasons to leave than doctrinal. I will leave now and respect that thus is a LCMS place.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

Just a few thoughts from a former LCMS (long story). As a young child in the LCMS, my Dad referred to those trying to convert members of other churches as sheep-stealers. Please don't be one of those. Preach to the unchurched instead. In my county, 50% are unchurched. Even though I attend a non-denom church, I don't try to get members of my old church to attend. If they're interested, I'll invite them. Otherwise, you sound like you believe they attend false churches.

Rev. Fisk is only confronting the issues Christians are facing that pull them away from Christ and into the Church of the anti-christ. Rev. Fisk isn't typically challenging specific denominations, but rather commonplace trends that come and go within various teachings which arise within various denominations, including Lutheran. Usually, these non-Biblical trends result in some sort of schism from a mainline denomination.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

The ones I talked with believe whatever the pastor says, even though they don't listen to the sermons. They tune out. They go to church to make sure the pews don't float away. They will stay until the church closes or until they die.

Just be glad that former Lutherans go to a Christ-centered Bible-Believing church. There are other reasons to leave than doctrinal. I will leave now and respect that thus is a LCMS place.

There's a time and place where it's necessary to leave a congregation, for me it would be, and has been, where a fake LCMS congregation or pastor exist. The congregation thankfully is a Confessional Lutheran one and the pastor left on his own realizing he wasn't what they wanted, but now a very confessional pastor is in place and the congregation is rapidly growing and has started two mission congregations.

Scripture-interprets-Scripture according to Dr. Martin Luther, which is our benchmark and safeguard against non-Biblical teaching and doctrines. The whole of the Lutheran congregation centers around rebuke, as is required by Scriptures, to hold our fellow Christians in-check according to what the Bible teaches. It's the congregation's responsibility to follow sound Biblical teaching and not the pastor alone; the pastor is there to hold strong to liturgy and to translate Hebrew and Koine into context where the English/German language falls short of properly conveying intent specific to Hebrew or Koine.

For forty days and nights Christ Jesus defended himself not with new words, but with the relevancy of Old Testament writings applied into context; while Satan cherry picked the Bible out of context to convey a different meaning all together.

 

[Moses Medina]

There's a time and place where it's necessary to leave a congregation, for me it would be, and has been, where a fake LCMS congregation or pastor exist. The congregation thankfully is a Confessional Lutheran one and the pastor left on his own realizing he wasn't what they wanted, but now a very confessional pastor is in place and the congregation is rapidly growing and has started two mission congregations.

Scripture-interprets-Scripture according to Dr. Martin Luther, which is our benchmark and safeguard against non-Biblical teaching and doctrines. The whole of the Lutheran congregation centers around rebuke, as is required by Scriptures, to hold our fellow Christians in-check according to what the Bible teaches. It's the congregation's responsibility to follow sound Biblical teaching and not the pastor alone; the pastor is there to hold strong to liturgy and to translate Hebrew and Koine into context where the English/German language falls short of properly conveying intent specific to Hebrew or Koine.

For forty days and nights Christ Jesus defended himself not with new words, but with the relevancy of Old Testament writings applied into context; while Satan cherry picked the Bible out of context to convey a different meaning all together.

Well said. Cherry picking verses generally leads to people placing themselves at the center instead of the proper context.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

Well said. Cherry picking verses generally leads to people placing themselves at the center instead of the proper context.

Thanks dario68w,

One of the things that I've noticed is that Rev. Fisk is being used as the fall guy for the content of questions he addresses, in my opinion. Rev. Fisk is on three primary platforms, one is more traditional and formal with Issues Etc..., the second is Greek Tuesdays which simply works through tough parts of Scripture to translate or moves through a lectionary, and thirdly would be his Ask Da Pastor 2.0 program.

I believe most of these negative comments about Rev. Fisk are focused on the "Ask Da Pastor 2.0" segment where he answers questions according to the theological perspective experienced by the questioner. This isn't something Rev. Fisk has any control over and the questioners' own misconceptions about a particular denomination or theology could indirectly work-in; Rev. Fisk only responds from a Lutheran perspective and it isn't his job to second guess which variation or schism of a particular branch of theology the questioner is directly related too. Rev. Fisk has taken on a difficult task to be thorough with really vague material and this requires him to be probably more broad than a theologically savvy Christian would care for. Rev. Fisk doesn't have enough time available, much less quality information, to determine if a Calvinist complaint, for instance, is about: Reformed-, Crypto-, Hyper-, or Dispensational- positions on Calvinism; and many of these questioners are typically too young in their faith to be so astute as to which they're even encountering, much less the person they're in a difference of opinion with.

I think Rev. Fisk treads more lightly than he's being given credit for. Rev. Fisk appropriately spends his time on the Lutheran perspective and doesn't really spend any majorities on other denominations or theologies in his Worldview Everlasting or Lutheran Ninja Clan uploads. The only exception that I've seen is his Google+ Hangout panel interview between three Arminians who've either found or came back to Lutheranism; discussing the "Catching Fire" movement within Arminianism at Prosperity Gospel, Vineyard, and radical-Pentecostal congregations.