John's Revelation

[AdB]

Dear AdB,
The resurrection from the grave is a coming future event where Christ gives a dead person a new body so that they live again. It happens at the end of this age. However, Christ does not appear to the lost when this happens. He does appear to the Elect though upon their bodily resurrection. At this time, Christ will meet them "face to face" (1Cor 13:12) because both Christ and His Elect will have glorious spiritual bodies. Very little additional information is given to us about this event or what happens after it in the final age - the Lake of Fire age.

Most scriptures that speak of the resurrection are referring to the spiritual resurrection.

The spiritual resurrection is when a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit/Baptism of the Spirit at their personal second coming of Christ. It is at this point in time when a spiritually dead person is given new life and is "born again". It is conversion and is when a person's original marred vessel (carnal nature) is destroyed and replaced by a new perfect vessel (Holy Spirit).

This event happens at the second coming of Christ and it is an individual event and happens spiritually (it happens within them). Paul's conversion is given as the pattern (type) that we all must follow in order to be saved (1Tim 1:16).

The second coming event has been happening over and over again since the time of the Apostles. As Revelation 1:3 says, the time is at hand. When Christ comes to one of His Elect AFTER they have received the Early Rain, He "appears" to them at this visitation. He "appears" to them because Christ heals their spiritual blindness so that they can start understanding the truth of God from scripture. In other words, Christ's veil is removed for them.

Christ only "appears" two times to mankind. The first time was in the flesh when He appeared to the world physically and went to the cross. The second time is when He appears spiritually within a person at their moment of conversion.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Those who are waiting for Him are "called out" believers who have received the Early Rain. When Christ comes to them with the Latter Rain, He brings salvation to them.

First comes the physical and then comes the spiritual. The Old Covenant is physical and outward. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant at the cross. He is now in the process of fulfilling the New Covenant and it is spiritual and inward. In this age, Christ is bringing the Kingdom of Heaven (Himself) to His chosen Elect and is fulfilling the New Covenant within them.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven and when He comes, He comes spiritually to the individual. He does not come visibly to this world at some future date. He "is, was and will be coming" as I earlier pointed out.

This verse supports this understanding:

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

"Heaven must receive" Christ until the end of the final age. At that time, all of creation is restored to the Father by the spiritual work of Christ under the New Covenant. This means that Christ only appears "spiritually" until His work is complete. The physical eye of mankind will never see Christ again. There is no one-time visible "second coming" to this world as is commonly taught.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The phrase "Every eye shall see Him" is referring to the salvation of mankind. We "see" Christ at our moment of conversion as Heb 9:28 says. And since all mankind will be saved, "every eye" will see Him someday and that truth will be testified to be true in "due time".

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

I think you are pushing these texts to a stretch trying to make them fit yoir narrative...

 

[AdB]

adb, Please consider the fact that we are told to endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12, +

The Jewish State of Israel will be gone after the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 21:1-7
Only a remnant will be saved, Romans 9:27, those few who have accepted Jesus now. Matthew 8:12

Too bad you seem to ignore my responce to the previous batch of texts... Regarding this second batch, I don't see how these indicate there will be no rapture...

 

[FaithWillDo]

I think you are pushing these texts to a stretch trying to make them fit yoir narrative...

Dear AdB,
The Word of God first comes to us physically on tablets of stone (Old Covenant). It is physical & outward and is man's work. But under the New Covenant, the Word of God is written in our hearts. It comes to us spiritually (within us). It is spiritual & inward and it is Christ's work. Until a person can rightly divide the Word in this manner, they will never understand the teachings of Christ under the New Covenant. This truth is very important because salvation ONLY comes to us under the New Covenant. We must "keep the sayings of this prophecy" or we will die in our sins under the Old Covenant.

Mankind prefers the Old Covenant and will quickly turn to it after receiving the Early Rain.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Until Christ comes to a person with both the Early and Latter Rain, they are going to stay under the Old Covenant of Law and be judged by it. Salvation only comes from the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. And since that Covenant is 100% the work of Christ, we must wait until He does His work "within" us with the Early and Latter Rain.

Here is where Christ teaches about coming out from under the Law:

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife who is mankind.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak and spiritually blind. He quickly became carnally minded. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This verse is speaking of the New Covenant which is spiritual.

When Christ first writes the Law in our hearts, it is the time of the Early Rain when we are “called out from the world”. Now, instead of by approaching God by "works", we are to approach Him by "faith" alone. However, shortly after receiving the Early Rain, Satan comes to us and deceives us. This happens because we remain spiritually blind. Because of Satan's deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works (like Adam did). This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law of Sin and Death. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law of Sin and Death can no longer accuse us. After this change from religion (man's work) to Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law of Sin and Death is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

Joe

 

[AdB]

This is what I've been saying all along. A futurist reading of Revelation presumes it's about the future, therefore making it utterly irrelevant for all Christians across the last 2000 years.

Too many Hollywood OMEN movies have coloured the way Americans read Revelation. Everyone wants to 'crack the code' and figure out when stuff is going to happen - disobeying and disbelieving the Lord when he says NO ONE will know. Instead of a future timetable to take random guesses at, John indicates that Revelation is about the Roman persecution of the church that is about to start. 4 times in Revelation 1 he indicates it is to his generation:-

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (verse 1)
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3). How could the early church obey something about 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near." (verse 3)
4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the TRIBULATION and the kingdom and the PATIENT ENDURANCE that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Verse 9 - capitals mine.) John already SHARES in *their* TRIBULATION! John was already in jail because of his gospel work, and already demonstrating the common theme throughout the rest of Revelation - that we overcome THIS time we are in by "patient endurance".

Revelation is a symbolic sermon, not a timeline. It's about how to stay faithful in the time between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day. John uses powerful biblical symbols to describe (not prescribe) what this time will be like. And it could be a long time before Jesus Returns. The number 1000 is commonly used to mean "a gazillion" - like when the Psalm says God owns all the sheep on "a thousand hills." What about the other million hills - does God not own all those two? So Revelation describes a long time, and traces 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.

HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are *concurrent*, not consecutive.

What does a particular chapter or image mean? The Bible Project is very good.
Revelation 1 to 11

Revelation 12 to 22.

Or it you want to go deeper, try (retired) Bishop Paul Barnett's book. He is not only a theologian, but has a doctorate in Ancient History and taught ancient history for many years, as well as leading tours of the bible lands.
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416

Bottom line - it describes natural disasters, tyrants persecuting the church as 'beast-states', the temptations of trusting in materialism and luxury and even state security, and all manner of other trials and tribulations and temptations of the last 2000 years and counting.

So what is it like to see Revelation through this lens? Let's look at the famous Dragon and the Beast out of Revelation 13. This describes Rome's persecution of the Christians in Asia Minor. Oh no! Not some mysterious end-times figure to guess at? Nope! But to futurist-Christians that suddenly feel Revelation isn't exciting any more because it's not about them, I want to ask one thing. Is 1 Corinthians about you? Or is it written to the early church of Corinth? Or Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, etc? They're written FOR us today, but TO the churches in those various towns. Why does the bible have to be ABOUT or TO us to be written FOR us?

But - just as reading 1 Corinthians was written to the early church in Corinth - it also applies to us today. So Revelation tells us general principles about beast states that persecute the church. Hitler was one beast state, Stalin another, North Korea yet another. There are many examples - but persecuted Christians have often looked to Revelation as a source of comfort. It's bad - but for the Christians that suffer with patient endurance and hope, Revelation has vivid images of the judgement of the wicked and wonderful promises if we hold fast to our first love. Jesus will return and raise and reward them. Indeed, it's such a powerful theme we see Jesus returning a number of times throughout the book.
Christians reading Revelation this way LAUGH at the futurist idea that John would tell his generation of suffering Christians "You think you've got it bad under the Romans, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
That's the difference between seeing a thematic sermon and a future timeline. A sermon to his generation is relevant for all Christians across all time. A future timetable is only relevant to those Christians willing to play endless guessing games about the last few years of history. To which I ask - what on earth has been the whole point of the book for the last 2000 years? Honestly!?

The Bible Project always has very good deliberations of the scriptures, and this one is also very good. But that doesn't mean that the revelation can't still be about actual future events, I think God is well able to combine the two...

 

[AdB]

it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts

how do you get from "writing in the sand" to "writing in our hearts"?

 

[FaithWillDo]

how do you get from "writing in the sand" to "writing in our hearts"?

Dear AdB,
Since Christ Himself is the Word of God, He teaches us not only by the things He says but also by the things He does. When Christ writes in the ground, that act carries a spiritual meaning.

To understand what Christ is writing, we must compare spiritual with spiritual as Paul says.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

All mankind has a carnal nature. The spiritual term "earth" symbolizes this nature and because of such, mankind is said to dwell upon the "earth". For this reason, Christ writes His Law in the earth because that is where mankind dwells.

1Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

From scripture we know that when the hand of God writes, God is writing the Law.

Exo 24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

We also know from this verse below that when God writes His Law within mankind, it is in our hearts:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

The "covenant" is the New Covenant. The New Covenant is spiritual. The only place Christ is working now is "within" our hearts and minds. That is where the Law must be written if we are ever going to be saved.

For those reasons, we can know that when Christ writes on the ground, it spiritually represents when He writes the Law in mankind hearts.

Here is some additional teaching on Christ's spiritual language and why He teaches in the manner:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally and in context, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a spiritual “symbol” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture – we must compare spiritual with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From this example, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of their carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents their new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of conversion (salvation) is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword/Christ).

Spiritual understanding of scripture is further explained and expanded by 1Cor 2:13, Isa 28: 10-12 and Psa 119:160.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

When a Called Out believer cannot understand the Word of God, their lack of understanding will cause them to “fall backward and be broken”. So what does to “fall backward and be broken” actually mean? This is the same as to “fall away” (Heb 6:4-6) and it means to return to one’s own attempt to be acceptable to God through their own works. This is the sin that leads to death (1John 5:16).

God’s Truth is also presented to us in bits and pieces, which means we must put those pieces together to see the truth:

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Again, to correctly understand scripture, it must be understood spiritually. For this type of understanding to occur, we must first understand that the words used in scripture do not carry the same meaning as taught by man’s wisdom (1Cor 2:13). Christ’s words are spirit and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We must compare spiritual with spiritual. We are to also keep in mind that “the sum of God’s Word is truth.

You may be asking yourself why God made His Word so difficult to understand. I can assure you that He did not do it by mistake. God is purposely concealing Himself from this world so that He can reveal Himself to each individual at a time of His choosing.

Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you (the Elect) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (those not Chosen) it is not given.

In scripture, the knowledge of God (which is fully found in Christ) is symbolized by Treasure.

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

For most people, God has not chosen to reveal Himself to them at this time. So for them, He remains “hidden” Treasure. However, that does not mean that He will forget them and forever remain hidden from their eyes. Scripture promises us that will not be the case.

1Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Cor 15: 22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

During this present age, Christ is gathering in the First-fruits of His Harvest. These First-fruits are also called the Chosen, the Elect, the Heirs, the Overcomers, the Bride or the Saints. The remaining harvest of mankind will come later in the final age which God established from the beginning of creation. Contrary to popular belief, Christ is NOT working to save all mankind during this present age. He is only appearing (revealing Himself) to those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8 & Eph 1:11). We are totally dependent upon Christ for our salvation, even the timing of it. We cannot “choose” ourselves to be one of His “chosen”. Christ alone is the One who calls us, chooses us and empowers us to remain faithful unto the end. It is all His work. To claim otherwise, only proves that we have “fallen away” and are attempting to be acceptable to Christ through our own “works”.

For those who have presently been given “eyes that can see” and “ears that can hear”, Christ is appearing to them and revealing Himself. They are finding great treasure!

The book of Revelation depicts this great treasure of God. This book is the great unveiling of Jesus Christ within an individual - it is salvation. But to keep Christ concealed from those not chosen to receive its message, the book was “signified” to the apostle John. In other words, the Truth was presented in spiritual symbols. It is in no way literal. It is not a book about end-time prophecy or future coming world events. There is no literal Lake of Fire or coming Antichrist who rules the world. And for that matter, there is not even a literal throne room in heaven or a heaven with streets of gold. These are all physical symbols which represent spiritual truths.

Joe

 

[AdB]

For those reasons, we can know that when Christ writes on the ground, it spiritually represents when He writes the Law in mankind hearts.

You're making quite a leap there...

BTW I didn't ask for a whole sermon

 

[keras]

Why this condensending tone?

Because the idea of a 'rapture to heaven' before any Judgment, is beyond sci-fi. People who believe that false theory, simply have not read or understood what our duty as Christians is and the wonderful Plan of God for His people. On earth.

 

[keras]

These are all physical symbols which represent spiritual truths.

As we are physical beings, this belief has no value.
Revelation and all the Prophesies, tell us about things that have physically happened and will happen in the future. Example is Zechariah 9:9

Things like earthquakes are literal, calling them spiritual, without giving any reason for doing that, is wrong and leaves people in the dark about Gods plans for His people.

 

[FaithWillDo]

As we are physical beings, this belief has no value.
Revelation and all the Prophesies, tell us about things that have physically happened and will happen in the future. Example is Zechariah 9:9

Things like earthquakes are literal, calling them spiritual, without giving any reason for doing that, is wrong and leaves people in the dark about Gods plans for His people.

Dear keras,
I wish I could help you understand. Scripture contains so much more than what you are seeing.

I am not saying that actual physical events of scripture did not happened. Of course they did. But those events teach spiritual truths which Christ will spiritually fulfill under the New Covenant.

Mal 3:1 prophesies that Christ will suddenly come to His temple. He fulfilled that event physically when He came in the flesh to the Jewish temple.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

However, that real event will also be spiritually fulfilled by Christ under the New Covenant when He comes suddenly to His Elect, His new temple. And He has been coming suddenly to His temple (the Elect) for the past 2000 years.

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

And Christ has been coming suddenly to His temple (each of the Elect) for the past 2000 years.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

And as Paul says, when Christ comes to His Elect in this age, He comes as a thief in the night and He brings sudden destruction to them.

1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The sudden destruction Christ brings to His Elect is the destruction of their carnal nature (Old Man). But from that destruction, He gives them a new birth as child of God. Destruction is a necessary part of our salvation. The old vessel must be made into a new vessel.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Christ also said this:

Mat 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

Christ literally fulfilled this prophecy, too - but He will also spiritually fulfill it within His Elect in this age. He will destroy their temple and rebuild it in "3" days. The number "3" spiritually represents a complete spiritual process. When Christ comes to His Elect and brings sudden destruction, He destroys the old temple. Then through a spiritual process (the narrow path), He will rebuild it. This is the same thing as destroying the old vessel and making a new vessel.

Can you see how Christ spiritually fulfills the physical events that happened in the Old Testament?

Christ said this:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

All the events recorded in the Old Testament are a "type" of what Christ will spiritually fulfill within mankind some day under the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is Christ's work and it is spiritual, meaning it happens "within us". In other words, Christ is cleaning the inside of our cup. The Old Covenant was man's work of trying to clean the outside of the cup.

The book of Revelation is a spiritual teaching of those same events that destroy the old vessel so that a new vessel can be made. This is conversion and salvation. And that is why Rev 22:10 says the seals are already open and the "time is at hand".

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

At the time the book was written, Christ was already fulfilling the prophecies the book presents using spiritual symbols. And that is also why Rev 22:7 says the these events will be fulfilled "quickly" and why the people who keep the sayings of this book are blessed. The Elect of this age are the ones who are blessed and keep the sayings. They are the First-Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

If we don't keep the sayings of the book within our lifetimes, we are not going to be saved in this age. We will not be a First-Fruit of Christ's harvest of mankind.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Believe me, if it does, you will be experiencing spiritual earthquakes, lightning, thunder and trumpets. It is quite an event. The sun will be darkened and the moon will be turned to blood. In other words, you will no longer receive the light of this world but will start receiving light (truth) from Christ. This event is the second coming of Christ "within" you and changes your old vessel into a new vessel.

I experienced this event on Oct. 8, 2005. And like you, I used to be an End-time prophecy teacher. But all that changed suddenly when Christ healed my spiritual blindness and open the scriptures up to me. He gave me "eyes that can see". It was the most dramatic moment in my life and that is why Christ describes it with earthquakes, thunder, lightning, etc.

If you have any questions, I would be happy to try and answer them.

Joe

 

[keras]

f you have any questions, I would be happy to try and answer them.

No questions, just disbelief of your 'spiritualisation' of plainly Written end times events.
We will soon see how the Lord will physically reset our civilization to a similar degree as He did in the days of Noah.

 

[FaithWillDo]

No questions, just disbelief of your 'spiritualisation' of plainly Written end times events.
We will soon see how the Lord will physically reset our civilization to a similar degree as He did in the days of Noah.

Dear keras,
All prophecy which remains unfulfilled, will only be fulfilled spiritually. Those unfulfilled prophecies will never happen out in the world as you visualize.

The Old Covenant is physical. The New Covenant is spiritual. You must rightly divide the Word by the two covenants. Any prophecy that had a physical fulfillment were fulfilled during the time of the Old Covenant. Any prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled, will now only be fulfilled spiritually (within us).

We are under the New Covenant now. The Old Covenant tastes better to our carnal nature but it will poison us if we consume it. We must put away the things our carnal nature tells us and trust in what Christ tells us. To find "life", we must live under the New Covenant and put away our physical understanding of scripture. If not, the truth of Christ will remain concealed.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

We must come out from being approaching Christ by "works". Salvation only comes by approaching Him by faith.

Christ is never going to come to this world again visually as He did under the Old Covenant. To see Him now, we must have spiritual eyes (eyes that can see) to see Him. Here is proof:

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: WHOM THE HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ will remain in "heaven" (meaning the spiritual realm) until all mankind has been saved at the end of the final age. He only comes back to us "spiritually" (within us) now. When He does, He heals our spiritual blindness so that we can "see" Him in scripture. It is only at that point will the truth of scripture open up to a believer. We must "keep the sayings of the prophecy".

Joe

 

[Douggg]

Dear keras,
All prophecy which remains unfulfilled, will only be fulfilled spiritually. Those unfulfilled prophecies will never happen out in the world as you visualize.

The Old Covenant is physical. The New Covenant is spiritual. You must rightly divide the Word by the two covenants. Any prophecy that had a physical fulfillment were fulfilled during the time of the Old Covenant. Any prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled, will now only be fulfilled spiritually (within us).

We are under the New Covenant now. The Old Covenant tastes better to our carnal nature but it will poison us if we consume it. We must put away the things our carnal nature tells us and trust in what Christ tells us. To find "life", we must live under the New Covenant and put away our physical understanding of scripture. If not, the truth of Christ will remain concealed.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

This truth is re-told in the verses below:

Rev 10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the LITTLE BOOK. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11

The “little book” is a symbol for the Old Covenant of Law. It tastes “sweet as honey” to mankind’s carnal nature. It is for that reason we prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine. After we eat and digest the “little book”, it poisons us. And just as John had to eat the “little book”, so do we all. It is something all mankind must do as they travel the path that leads to salvation. We “live” not just by “bread” but every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

We must come out from being under the Old Covenant in order to be saved.

Christ is never going to come to this world again visually as He did under the Old Covenant. To see Him now, we must have spiritual eyes (eyes that can see) to see Him. Here is proof:

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: WHOM THE HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ will remain in "heaven" (meaning the spiritual realm) until all mankind has been saved at the end of the final age. He only comes back to us "spiritually" (within us) now. When He does, He heals our spiritual blindness so that we can "see" Him in scripture. It is only at that point will the truth of scripture open up to a believer. We must "keep the sayings of the prophecy".

Joe

What old covenant are you referring to? Who was that covenant between, for you to have been under the old covenant?

 

[FaithWillDo]

What old covenant are you referring to? Who was that covenant between, for you to have been under the old covenant?

Dear Douggg,
The Old Wine is the Old Covenant of Law (man's works). The Old Covenant ended upon the resurrection of Christ but it’s foundational premise of “works” is still followed by all who are "called out" because they remain carnally minded.

Mankind's carnal nature prefers the Old Wine over the New Wine and Satan uses that preference to his advantage. When an unbeliever receives the Early Rain of the Spirit (being called out), Satan comes to them and tempts them to turn away from Faith alone and deceives them into trying to earn salvation from their own works. This concept is taught in the parable below.

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This parable is one of the "the kingdom of Heaven is like" parables. All the parables that start off in this manner are teaching on certain aspects of the pathway to salvation.

Christ said the Kingdom of Heaven comes "within" a person so these parables must be applied "within" us. They are spiritual and the spiritual happens "within" us which is where the work of the New Covenant occurs.

The Old Covenant is outward and tries to make one righteous through man's outward works. But the New Covenant is spiritual and is Christ's work of changing us from "within".

The teaching of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares must be applied within a person to properly understand its meaning. In short, the harvest at the end of the world is a believer's moment of conversion when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit from Christ. That is the point when the "Man of Sin" (a fallen away believer) is destroyed and the new child of God is born. In other words, the "world" ends within the believer because the Kingdom of Heaven is now "within" them. This is why prophecy is called "End-time" prophecy. It is the end of us being a part of this carnal world (spiritually speaking). We are NO LONGER represented in the Seven-Headed Beast (mankind) of Revelation. God views us as no longer being a part of mankind. All that has ended "within" us and we are now a child of God who dwells in heaven.

Here is a short summary of the meaning of the parable:

Mankind is the field in the world. When Christ comes to us the first time with the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road), Christ plants His seed of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) within us. At that time, the new child of God is in the womb but not yet born. When it grows into wheat, the unborn child will be ready to be born into the kingdom of Heaven (ready to be harvested).

However, at the time Christ plants His seed within us, He leaves us spiritually blind and we cannot understand the truth of God (Paul's blindness, Mark 8:21-25 & Mat 12:43-45). In other words, Christ does not "appear" to us at the time of the Early Rain because we cannot "see" Him. The Word of God remains veiled from our understanding.

Soon after we receive the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan comes to us at night (our time of spiritual blindness) and plants His seed (spirit of anti-Christ, lies and deceptions) within us, too. When his seed grows into a tare (child of the Devil, Man of Sin), it is ready for judgment (burned).

As a result of both the child of God and the child of the Devil living within us, we mix "faith" (which is what the child of God walks by) with "works" (which is what a child of the Devil walks by). This mixture causes us to "fall away" because we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24). This is the sin (man's works) that leads to death. Once we have fallen away from the truth, we cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). Our only hope for salvation is for Christ to "come again". He does so when the wheat is ready to be harvested. This second coming event is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is the same event that the Apostles received in the Upper Room and the same event Paul experienced after being blind and in bed in Damascus for three days. It is also called the Baptism of the Spirit.

At the time of the harvest (Latter Rain), Christ heals our spiritual blindness. The Man of Sin is "revealed" to us and judged (burned by fire). He is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearing to us. Christ's "appearance" happens because our spiritual blindness has been healed. Then, for the first time, we can understand the truth of God through scripture. After the tares (child of the devil) are burned, all that remains will be the child of God who has just been born. This is the moment of conversion and is when a new child of God is harvested in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Satan tried to plant his tares within Christ, too. This happened when Christ went into the wilderness to fast for 40 days. When Christ grew hungry, Satan tempted Christ to change stones into bread. Satan's stones represent his approach of being acceptable to God by "works". Bread represents the truth of being acceptable to God by Faith alone. What Satan was actually saying to Christ was for Him to change the pathway to salvation to one of "works" rather than by "faith". But Christ refuses and adds that mankind must "live" (to be born again), not just by bread, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. In other words, man must consume both the stones and the bread before we are saved.

Shortly after becoming a Christian, we all eat Satan's stones, all the while, thinking these stones are the truth of God (bread). Satan deceives us.

This concept is re-told in Mat 13:33 with leavened bread. And like the stones, we all must eat the leavened bread, too. We live by "every word".

Man's works are the core of the Old Covenant of Law and it will never save us. We must approach Christ solely by Faith. We cannot serve two masters.

When we turn to "works" for our salvation, we spiritually die and lose our salvation. This is how Satan "kills the saints". It happens to everyone.

At this point, a fallen away believer's only hope for salvation is for Christ to come again and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the Baptism of the Spirit which the Apostles received in the upper room. We must have both the Early Rain and the Latter Rain to be saved.

The pathway to salvation is laid out step by step by Christ. Mankind cannot deviate from it. That pathway passes through religion (man's works) and then onto the New Covenant of Faith.

Joe

 

[Douggg]

The Old Wine is the Old Covenant of Law (man's works). The Old Covenant ended upon the resurrection of Christ but it is still followed by all who are "called out" because they remain carnally minded.

What Old Covenant of Law?

The point is that you (unless you are a Jew) were never a part of the Mt. Sinai covenant. And were never under the old covenant.

By receiving Christ as your savior, you are under the covenant of Christ.

It is only New (relavent to the old) if you were part of the Old, which you were not. You could say the covenant of Christ is new to mankind. But you can't say you were under the old covenant - unless you are a Jew, descended from the twelve tribes of Israel.

So the rightly dividing the word of God, by covenants, the new covenant and old covenant is a miss. You are under the covenant of Christ, not having ever been under the Mt. Sinai covenant. Sin, the breaking of God's law, was before there were any covenants.

Rightly dividing the Word of God is discerning truth from error in understanding the Word of God.

And when you spiritualize everything - that is error.

 

[FaithWillDo]

What Old Covenant of Law?

The point is that you (unless you are a Jew) were never a part of the Mt. Sinai covenant. And were never under the old covenant.

By receiving Christ as your savior, you are under the covenant of Christ.

It is only New (relavent to the old) if you were part of the Old, which you were not. You could say the covenant of Christ is new to mankind. But you can't say you were under the old covenant - unless you are a Jew, descended from the twelve tribes of Israel.

So the rightly dividing the word of God, by covenants, the new covenant and old covenant is a miss. You are under the covenant of Christ, not having ever been under the Mt. Sinai covenant. Sin, the breaking of God's law, was before there were any covenants.

Rightly dividing the Word of God is discerning truth from error in understanding the Word of God.

And when you spiritualize everything - that is error.

Dear Douggg,
The Old Covenant ended when Christ was resurrected as I have said. Christ "fulfilled" that Covenant. But when a believer tries to earn their salvation through "works" (as the Old Covenant tried to do), they remain under the Law of Sin and Death and are NOT under Grace any longer. They commit the sin that leads to dead and they lose their salvation.

Man's carnal nature prefers the Old Covenant (man's work) over the New Covenant (Faith alone). Because of that truth, a new believer will always fall for Satan's lie and will approach Christ by "works" (a mixture of works and faith) rather than by Faith alone. Because they do not approach Christ by faith alone (New Covenant), they will "be broken" and will remain under the Law of Sin and Death. Upon their resurrection from the grave, Christ will say to them that He never knew them and will tell them to depart "ye who work lawlessness". One can only work lawlessness if they are under the Law.

The story of the woman taken in adultery teaches when mankind comes out from the Law of Sin and Death. It only happens when we receive the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Holy Spirit).

The Word of God is spiritual and so is the New Covenant. Unless mankind is changed spiritually, they will never stop committing sins or be acceptable to God. The work of changing man is solely the work of Christ. When man thinks that they can do anything to help Christ save them, they are committing the sin that leads to death. Christ does 100% of the work of saving us and His work is spiritual. His work within us changes our hearts and minds. It is His work within us that causes us to call Him "Lord" and approach Him by faith alone. In our created condition, we cannot make a "free will" decision to confess Jesus as "Lord". Our created carnal condition only wants to approach Him by our own "works". From that belief in "works", the Doctrine of Hell was born.

A "fallen away" Christian believes that unbelievers who reject Christ are worthy of Hell because they did not "choose" Christ, never mind the fact that it was impossible for them to make any other choice. The choice that an unbeliever makes happens only because Christ never came to them and changed them from within. Christ never gave them the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit.

As for a "fallen away" Christian, they take pride in the fact that they accepted Christ by making a "free will" decision to do so. With that mindset, they must believe that they are smarter, wiser or just not as evil as those who never chose Christ. This belief system is the definition of being self righteous and is not acceptable to God. Someday, Christ will come to them with the Latter Rain and destroy it.

The Doctrine of Free Will is a "works" based belief system. It is a lie from Satan and it is how this world approaches God. In other words, the Doctrine of Free Will is "religion" (man's attempt to earn favor with God). When a believer consumes this "little book", it will taste good to them but when it is digested, it will poison them and they will lose their salvation. They will no no longer be under Grace because they are have fallen back to "works". They remain under the Law of Sin and Death and will pay that penalty of death upon the second coming of Christ. The blood of Christ no longer covers their sin. Faith under the New Covenant is the only path to salvation. Then from the death that they pay, Christ will resurrect them by giving them the Baptism of the Spirit. At that point, they will only approach Christ by faith and will then be covered by His blood. Because their spiritual blindness is also healed, they will never fall for Satan's deceptions again.

I hope what I said above makes my previous post a little clearer.
Joe

 

[Douggg]

Dear Douggg,
The Old Covenant ended when Christ was resurrected as I have said. Christ "fulfilled" that Covenant. But when a believer tries to earn their salvation through "works" (as the Old Covenant tried to do), they remain under the Law of Sin and Death and are NOT under Grace any longer. They commit the sin that leads to dead and they lose their salvation.

Man's carnal nature prefers the Old Covenant (man's work) over the New Covenant (Faith alone). Because of that truth, a new believer will always fall for Satan's lie and will approach Christ by "works" (a mixture of works and faith) rather than by Faith alone. Because they do not approach Christ by faith alone (New Covenant), they will "be broken" and will remain under the Law of Sin and Death. Upon their resurrection from the grave, Christ will say to them that He never knew them and will tell them to depart "ye who work lawlessness". One can only work lawlessness if they are under the Law.

The story of the woman taken in adultery teaches when mankind comes out from the Law of Sin and Death. It only happens when we receive the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Holy Spirit).

The Word of God is spiritual and so is the New Covenant. Unless mankind is changed spiritually, they will never stop committing sins or be acceptable to God. The work of changing man is solely the work of Christ. When man thinks that they can do anything to help Christ save them, they are committing the sin that leads to death. Christ does 100% of the work of saving us and His work is spiritual. His work within us changes our hearts and minds. It is His work within us that causes us to call Him "Lord" and approach Him by faith alone. In our created condition, we cannot make a "free will" decision to confess Jesus as "Lord". Our created carnal condition only wants to approach Him by our own "works". From that belief in "works", the Doctrine of Hell was born.

A "fallen away" Christian believes that unbelievers who reject Christ are worthy of Hell because they did not "choose" Christ, never mind the fact that it was impossible for them to make any other choice. The choice that an unbeliever makes happens only because Christ never came to them and changed them from within. Christ never gave them the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit.

As for a "fallen away" Christian, they take pride in the fact that they accepted Christ by making a "free will" decision to do so. With that mindset, they must believe that they are smarter, wiser or just not as evil as those who never chose Christ. This belief system is the definition of being self righteous and is not acceptable to God. Someday, Christ will come to them with the Latter Rain and destroy it.

The Doctrine of Free Will is a "works" based belief system. It is a lie from Satan and it is how this world approaches God. In other words, the Doctrine of Free Will is "religion" (man's attempt to earn favor with God). When a believer consumes this "little book", it will taste good to them but when it is digested, it will poison them and they will lose their salvation. They will no no longer be under Grace because they are have fallen back to "works". They remain under the Law of Sin and Death and will pay that penalty of death upon the second coming of Christ. The blood of Christ no longer covers their sin. Faith under the New Covenant is the only path to salvation. Then from the death that they pay, Christ will resurrect them by giving them the Baptism of the Spirit. At that point, they will only approach Christ by faith and will then be covered by His blood. Because their spiritual blindness is also healed, they will never fall for Satan's deceptions again.

I hope what I said above makes my previous post a little clearer.
Joe

Take what you are saying. Leave out the terms old covenant and new covenant, all together. And repackage it as law vs grace.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Take what you are saying. Leave out the terms old covenant and new covenant, all together. And repackage it as law vs grace.

Doug,
The New Covenant is appropriate to use but I will be more careful using "Old Covenant". I read my earlier posts and I can see where my usage was confusing in a couple of places. The foundational premise of the Old Covenant of Law is man's works. I used those two terms interchangeably and should not have. There is a difference. I think from now own I will use "religion" (man's works), instead of saying the Old Covenant of works.

As for using Law and Grace, I think "Law" should be more specific and say "Law of Sin and Death" so that no one would think that "Law" is referring to the Old Covenant of Law.

I edited my previous post in a couple of spots and tried to correct the confusion. Thanks for pointing it out.
Joe

 

[Douggg]

The New Covenant is appropriate to use but I will be more careful using "Old Covenant". I read my earlier posts and I can see where my usage was confusing in a couple of places.

Use of "Old Covenant" is just a confusion factor. Focus on law vs grace.

New covenant, based on grace, is okay if you keep it in reference as new to mankind.... who had previously been under the penalty of sin, according to the law of God.

To the Jews, the law was formally given on Mt. Sinai. To the rest of mankind, the law is written on man's conscience, that he has no excuse. As a witness against both, Jew and non-Jew.

But by the covenant of Christ - both can be saved.
______________________________________

Separately, your eschatology needs work. Jesus is coming and His reward is with Him. I wish you well on your walk with Christ.

 

[Dee-Nabi]

That's talking about someone purposely and deviously adding to or subtracting from the book to make it say what they want it to say. It's not talking about someone misinterpreting it. If it was talking about someone misinterpreting the book then most, if not all, of us would be doomed.

Welcome to the forum, by the way. It looks like you must be new here.

Not quite just “deviously”. If one asserts their misinterpretation (or even if it spreads and others accept it as truth), without even realizing it, we can easily accidentally create lies about God’s words, which could cause someone to misunderstand about something like salvation, about heaven and hell, eternity. It’s not entirely impossible for a lot of us to be in trouble/in danger of this. After all, the chosen people (Jews) that Jesus came to in the first coming did not recognize him and hated him, despite them maybe not being purposefully devious or malicious in the beginning. Who are we to assume we’re entirely safe from making the same mistake? Does intention separate misinterpretation from lie in the end if they have the same result of misguidance?

I’m only asking this because teachers, leaders, pastors, those who try to explain these verses bear a big responsibility if they share their interpretation without being 100% able to show why they know and confident that they only speak truth. We easily hold to our own idea first.. It’s what causes so much division, even in the rest of this thread..

Also thank you for the greeting. I happened to see this thread and was intrigued!