John Wycliffe the Brave...

bbbbbbb · Dec 4, 2009

Secundulus said:
You are limited by your definition of faith. It is not simply believing, it is doing.

Simply believing by itself will get you nowhere except on the fast track to hell.

Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:1920, D-R)

Please, please, please read this very slowly and carefully. LionRoar and I never brought up the topic of faith. I repeat, faith is not the subject under discussion between LionRoad and myself.

The topic under discussion is grace. LionRoar stated clearly that salvation is by God's grace apart from works and that the Catechism of the Catholic Church was quite clear on that matter.

So, please stop attempting to derail the discussion. If you wish to discuss faith and salvation I suggest you open a thread under the Soteriology section.

bbbbbbb · Dec 4, 2009

Secundulus said:
Link me back to the specific posts in question so I know what you are talking about.

Here is what LionRoar posted in Post #56:

"The salvation of a person does not lie whether they are a member of the Catholic Church or not. Their salvation lies in their faith. Faith is the assurance of things we do not see and the evidence for things unseen.

"Heb 11:1 KJV 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

"Our assurance of salvation is in our faith.

"Salvation is not in a list of things that we check off as they are done and that qualifies people as saved.

"Giving someone the assurance of salvation is saying that God will judge a person as saved.

"IMO that's not biblical.

"As there those that will do great things in His name but will not be saved, because they did not do the will of the Father.

"Matthew 7:21-23

"21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. __________________"

And in Post #59 he stated the following:

"The CC does not teach a works based salvation. Why are you surprised that a Catholic beilves what the CC teaches?

"Salvation by grace. "

Secundulus · Dec 4, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
Please, please, please read this very slowly and carefully. LionRoar and I never brought up the topic of faith. I repeat, faith is not the subject under discussion between LionRoad and myself.

The topic under discussion is grace. LionRoar stated clearly that salvation is by God's grace apart from works and that the Catechism of the Catholic Church was quite clear on that matter.

So, please stop attempting to derail the discussion. If you wish to discuss faith and salvation I suggest you open a thread under the Soteriology section.

Faith is the response to Grace. It is impossible to separate the two when speaking of salvation.

However, per your request, I will leave.

MrPolo · Dec 5, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
Of course not, but then blood does not remain red for very long but quickly turns brown. The "blood" on the Shroud of Turin is not brown but a dark maroon consistent with the color of red oxide paint. One might conclude that God miraculously transformed the blood from human blood into red iron oxide paint

Or your scientist source is a fraud. Or the numerous scientists who concluded "blood" are all in the scam together over a number of decades.

bbbbbbb · Dec 5, 2009

MrPolo said:
Or your scientist source is a fraud. Or the numerous scientists who concluded "blood" are all in the scam together over a number of decades.

The simple facts of the matter are that the Catholic Church assembled a group of the most prominent scientists in their respective fields in a serious attempt to determine the authenticity of the Shroud. Dr. McCrone was the preeminent scientist in his field as well as a practicing Catholic. The final report contained a large range of findings. Some of the scientists concluded that their aspect of the investigation bolstered the claim to authenticity. For example, the linen fabric was examined and was determined to be of the type used in the first century for burial shrouds. However, the findings were not unanimous. Some scientists such as Dr. McCrone determined that aspects such as the "blood" were no authentic. The final result was that the report was not given much prominence by the Catholic Church, although those findings which supported authenticity did receive more support than those which did not.

I applaud the attempt by the Catholic Church to determine as objectively as possible the authenticity of the Shroud.

lionroar0 · Dec 6, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
Shall we look at just one paragraph from the CC to begin our discussion of salvation and works? Here it is -

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Do you believe this paragraph to be true? Is not baptism a sacrament and a work? Therefore, one cannot be saved, according to this paragraph, without this work.

It also states that God is not bound by His sacrament.

A sacrament is not our work but Christ's work.

1212 The sacraments of Christian initiation - Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist - lay the foundations of every Christian life. "The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and receive in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity." 3

boswd · Dec 6, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
The simple facts of the matter are that the Catholic Church assembled a group of the most prominent scientists in their respective fields in a serious attempt to determine the authenticity of the Shroud. Dr. McCrone was the preeminent scientist in his field as well as a practicing Catholic. The final report contained a large range of findings. Some of the scientists concluded that their aspect of the investigation bolstered the claim to authenticity. For example, the linen fabric was examined and was determined to be of the type used in the first century for burial shrouds. However, the findings were not unanimous. Some scientists such as Dr. McCrone determined that aspects such as the "blood" were no authentic. The final result was that the report was not given much prominence by the Catholic Church, although those findings which supported authenticity did receive more support than those which did not.

I applaud the attempt by the Catholic Church to determine as objectively as possible the authenticity of the Shroud.

Nat Geo just ran a Shroud of Turin special the other day. Very interesting.
But The Scientis did not say it wasn't blood, like what you are trying to say, but it wasn't conclusive enought that they can say without a shadow of a doubt that it is blood. The findings found elements that are in blood but it's not conclusive.

And one thing that even the doubters agree on is the HOW can such an elaborate hoax have been conducted in those times when the technoloyg doesn't exist. Even with today's tech. they cannot even pull this off.

And other findins found the blood stains and marks were consistant.

bbbbbbb · Dec 7, 2009

lionroar0 said:
It also states that God is not bound by His sacrament.

A sacrament is not our work but Christ's work.

1212 The sacraments of Christian initiation - Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist - lay the foundations of every Christian life. "The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and receive in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity." 3

If a sacrament is not our (meaning uncertain) work, but Christ's work then why is it at all necessary for any human involvement? Christ did not require our efforts when He created the heavens and the earth, so why does He need human proxies to perform His work of salvation? Is it conceivable that one can be born anew through the Spirit (John 3:6)?

In your understanding what actually constitutes a work?

To assist you here is a fairly typical paragraph from the catechism -

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."

lionroar0 · Dec 7, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
If a sacrament is not our (meaning uncertain) work, but Christ's work then why is it at all necessary for any human involvement? Christ did not require our efforts when He created the heavens and the earth, so why does He need human proxies to perform His work of salvation? Is it conceivable that one can be born anew through the Spirit (John 3:6)?

In your understanding what actually constitutes a work?

To assist you here is a fairly typical paragraph from the catechism -

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."

You do not understand what a good work is. A good work is Christ's work.

The Apostles good work was to spread the gospel. Is this their work or Christ's work which they were doing? Is this the apostles work of salvation or Christ's?

Christ is who makes us partakers of His work through His grace.

Ephesians

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

In the Communion of Saints
1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person." 86

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." 87 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy." 88

MrPolo · Dec 7, 2009

lionroar0 said:
You do not understand what a good work is. A good work is Christ's work.

It is so refreshing to read someone saying this. How the parable of the talents comes to mind...

MamaZ · Dec 7, 2009

Well many men do good works.. But they are not Christs work.

lionroar0 · Dec 7, 2009

MamaZ said:
Well many men do good works.. But they are not Christs work.

Are the good works of the apostles of themselves or Christ's?

MamaZ · Dec 8, 2009

lionroar0 said:
Are the good works of the apostles of themselves or Christ's?

So is every one an apostle?

lionroar0 · Dec 8, 2009

MamaZ said:
So is every one an apostle?

No and they don't need to be to do Christ's work.

MamaZ · Dec 8, 2009

How does a man do Christs work?

MrPolo · Dec 8, 2009

MamaZ said:
How does a man do Christs work?

Ask Peter.
Acts 9:36-37, 40 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha...she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room....Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

jckstraw72 · Dec 8, 2009

the Venerable Bede was reading the Scriptures in English way back in the 8th century or so. the story of Wycliffe is pure crap. its a legend. a hero based on myth really. i know its just sooo horrible to recognize good things that the Catholic Church did.

bbbbbbb · Dec 8, 2009

lionroar0 said:
It also states that God is not bound by His sacrament.

A sacrament is not our work but Christ's work.

1212 The sacraments of Christian initiation - Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist - lay the foundations of every Christian life. "The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and receive in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity." 3

If God is not bound by His sacrament then a sacrament is not actually necessary for salvation as stated in the Catechism. If it is necessary, then, by definition, God requires it. If it is unnecessary and God is not bound by it then the Catechism is in error or, at the least, in serious contradiction with your statement No where in your quote is it stated that God is not bound by a sacrament.

bbbbbbb · Dec 8, 2009

boswd said:
Nat Geo just ran a Shroud of Turin special the other day. Very interesting.
But The Scientis did not say it wasn't blood, like what you are trying to say, but it wasn't conclusive enought that they can say without a shadow of a doubt that it is blood. The findings found elements that are in blood but it's not conclusive.

And one thing that even the doubters agree on is the HOW can such an elaborate hoax have been conducted in those times when the technoloyg doesn't exist. Even with today's tech. they cannot even pull this off.

And other findins found the blood stains and marks were consistant.

I did you see the special so I am unaware of it. It is certainly possible to focus on those scientists whose findings provide varying degrees of authentication and either ignore or downplay those whose findings did not. The truth is that the findings were no unanimous.

It is hardly difficult to pull off a hoax of a piece of cloth with blood stains. Joseph's brothers in the Old Testament did it by taking his multi-colored coat and dipping it in goat's blood and presenting it to Isaac, their father who concluded, logically that because it was Joseph's coat and it was all bloody Joseph had died after being attacked by a wild beast. It is assuredly not difficult to take blood, even human blood, and create a shroud. The problem as I noted previously is that human blood over time turns brown and does not look red like blood. Red iron oxide paint holds its color better and, to the eyes of the faithful, assuredly looks more like blood than does blood itself.

bbbbbbb · Dec 8, 2009

lionroar0 said:
You do not understand what a good work is. A good work is Christ's work.

The Apostles good work was to spread the gospel. Is this their work or Christ's work which they were doing? Is this the apostles work of salvation or Christ's?

Christ is who makes us partakers of His work through His grace.

Ephesians

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

In the Communion of Saints
1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person." 86

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." 87 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy." 88

Am I correct in understanding that the Catholic is a sort of robot who becomes Christ, or, at least, so controlled by Christ that Christ does His good works through them and they have no determination as to whether or not they will or will not do good works? This seems to be much more predestinarian than anything I have encountered in classical Calvinism.

John Wycliffe the Brave...

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

Doin' that whole Orthodox thing

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