John Wycliffe the Brave...

[lionroar0]

So all prayer is announced to the heavenlies. All up there are omnipresent? Scripture tells us that our Father hears us in secret

They are not but the Holy Spirit is.

When St. Paul asked for payers the Scriptures don't state who prayed for Him.

 

[narnia59]

why do you keep insisting that they must be omnipresent?!?!?!!?!? does space even factor in to the heavenly reality?

Or time?

Or physical limitations, like how many people you can hear at one time? Since with a few exceptions, nobody has ears?

If one wants to make the assertion that one cannot 'hear' multiple people at a time, it would seem one would be forced to conclude that one cannot 'hear' anyone at all (even those in heaven with them) since 'ears' don't exist.

 

[Dorothea]

Or time?

Or physical limitations, like how many people you can hear at one time? Since with a few exceptions, nobody has ears?

If one wants to make the assertion that one cannot 'hear' multiple people at a time, it would seem one would be forced to conclude that one cannot 'hear' anyone at all (even those in heaven with them) since 'ears' don't exist.

Yes. As I posted earlier in this thread, we tend to use our earthily minds and intellect to try to give an idea of what we imagine Heaven to be like, and some comments fail because they are done through the narrow view of a human's earthily mind. I hope that made sense.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Herein lies the difficulty with the "communion" of disembodied saints:

1. After physical death they assume a persona quite unlike their limited personage while on earth.
2. They become some sort of demi-gods with godlike attributes (e.g. they are in many places at once hearing many prayers all at the same time)
3. They have particular locations where they are best communicated with (i.e. pilgrimage sites or special chapels) with the sure and certain hope that these locations will ensure that the prayers of the believers will rise to the disembodied saint,
4. They become somehow polymorphous, both being infused or merged into God in part or in whole, or God having absorbed some of part of them. This is quite a significant problem, if not a heresy.

 

[jckstraw72]

Herein lies the difficulty with the "communion" of disembodied saints:

1. After physical death they assume a persona quite unlike their limited personage while on earth.
2. They become some sort of demi-gods with godlike attributes (e.g. they are in many places at once hearing many prayers all at the same time)
3. They have particular locations where they are best communicated with (i.e. pilgrimage sites or special chapels) with the sure and certain hope that these locations will ensure that the prayers of the believers will rise to the disembodied saint,
4. They become somehow polymorphous, both being infused or merged into God in part or in whole, or God having absorbed some of part of them. This is quite a significant problem, if not a heresy.

basically what you are describing is theosis -- the process whereby we become more and more like God -- a process that continues for all eternity. As Peter says, we become partakers of the divine nature, and take on more and more God-like attributes. This is what the whole Christian life is all about.

but as for them being in many places at once, i still dont know where this idea is coming from.

 

[narnia59]

basically what you are describing is theosis -- the process whereby we become more and more like God -- a process that continues for all eternity. As Peter says, we become partakers of the divine nature, and take on more and more God-like attributes. This is what the whole Christian life is all about.

but as for them being in many places at once, i still dont know where this idea is coming from.

I think the idea is coming from his #1 in the list:

After physical death they assume a persona quite unlike their limited personage while on earth.

It seems that many are unwilling to consider that when we die we will indeed have a personna quite unlike the limited one we do on earth. I am not sure why that is. After all, we are no longer bound to physical bodies or time and space. So why would one assume we are still bound by these things? As I mentioned earlier, since we will not have ears (until our resurrected bodies), or eyes, or any "physical" senses -- does that mean we spend our time waiting for the end of time with no ability to communicate with those who are there with us?

And then the conclusion is that if one instead believes we will be able to communicate with each other in a different way than what we now know without the same physical limitations of bodies, time and space, we must therefore be God and omnipresent.

Logical it is not.