John Wycliffe the Brave...

[Secundulus]

Shall we look at just one paragraph from the CC to begin our discussion of salvation and works? Here it is -

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Do you believe this paragraph to be true? Is not baptism a sacrament and a work? Therefore, one cannot be saved, according to this paragraph, without this work.

The Church simply teaches what the scriptures proclaim without trying to reinterpret them to fit a 16th Century or modern mentality.

““He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. ” (Mark 16:16, NASB95)

 

[MrPolo]

Is not baptism a sacrament and a work? Therefore, one cannot be saved, according to this paragraph, without this work.

FYI, the sacraments are of Christ and accomplished by the Spirit. People like, say, John MacArthur are under the delusion that sacraments are "works-based" salvation.

 

[Secundulus]

FYI, the sacraments are of Christ and accomplished by the Spirit. People like, say, John MacArthur are under the delusion that sacraments are "works-based" salvation.

Those who preach that our "works" are irrelevant are preaching a false gospel from which one should flee for the good of his soul.

 

[MrPolo]

analyzed the Shroud of Turin and concluded that the "blood" was actually red oxide paint.

Does red oxide paint turn up as blood type AB along with high concentrations of bilirubin, male X & Y chromosomes, and degraded DNA consistent with "the supposition of ancient blood"?

 

[MrPolo]

Those who preach that our "works" are irrelevant are preaching a false gospel from which one should flee for the good of his soul.

Indeed. It is hard for some to grasp the difference of works done in and through Christ versus works of the Old Covenant prescriptions which Scripture describes as unable to justify.

 

[Secundulus]

Through your works you demonstrate to whom you belong. Your works of unrighteousness your slavery to sin and your enthrallment to Satan.

Your works of righteousness demonstrate that you believe God and and belong to him.

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? ” (Romans 6:16, ESV)

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Church simply teaches what the scriptures proclaim without trying to reinterpret them to fit a 16th Century or modern mentality.

““He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. ” (Mark 16:16, NASB95)

You apparently have not been following the discussion I am having with LionRoar who stated that salvation is by grace and not by works and that fully comports with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I did not raise the issue about the scriptures but simply provided a single paragraph, among many, from the Catechism which appears to contradict his statement. It is apparent that, as a good Catholic, you believe the Catechism and do not, therefore, believe that salvation is by grace and not works.

 

[bbbbbbb]

FYI, the sacraments are of Christ and accomplished by the Spirit. People like, say, John MacArthur are under the delusion that sacraments are "works-based" salvation.

If, indeed, something is genuinely of Christ and accomplished by the Spirit there would be no need of any human effort, would there? For example, on the day of Pentecost all of the assembly in the upper room spoke in other languages, not having learned them previously. It was a miracle of Christ and was accomplished by the Spirit.

 

[Secundulus]

You apparently have not been following the discussion I am having with LionRoar who stated that salvation is by grace and not by works and that fully comports with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I did not raise the issue about the scriptures but simply provided a single paragraph, among many, from the Catechism which appears to contradict his statement. It is apparent that, as a good Catholic, you believe the Catechism and do not, therefore, believe that salvation is by grace and not works.

The Catechism states that salvation is by God's Grace. Therefore, I reject your false caricature of what is taught and believed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Those who preach that our "works" are irrelevant are preaching a false gospel from which one should flee for the good of his soul.

Would you say that LionRoar is preaching a false gospel from which he should flee for the good of his soul?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Does red oxide paint turn up as blood type AB along with high concentrations of bilirubin, male X & Y chromosomes, and degraded DNA consistent with "the supposition of ancient blood"?

Of course not, but then blood does not remain red for very long but quickly turns brown. The "blood" on the Shroud of Turin is not brown but a dark maroon consistent with the color of red oxide paint. One might conclude that God miraculously transformed the blood from human blood into red iron oxide paint

 

[Secundulus]

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven". Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 1

 

[Secundulus]

Would you say that LionRoar is preaching a false gospel from which he should flee for the good of his soul?

I would imagine that he has a proper understanding of the word "Faith."

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Catechism states that salvation is by God's Grace. Therefore, I reject your false caricature of what is taught and believed.

Of course it does, but it does not state that salvation is by God's grace alone. The Catechism provides a fully rounded view of God's grace as part and parcel of salvation, but hardly the only element. In addition to God's grace there are the sacraments and a large variety of works, all of which are either necessary or at least contributing to salvation. I simply cited one example, baptism, which is hardly a caricature, but is clearly stated as being essential to salvation. Please show me how this is false as it comes word-for-word from the catechism.

 

[bbbbbbb]

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven". Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 1

I have absolutely no problem with this section of the Catechism as representing Catholic belief. However, you will do well to note that no where in these paragraphs is it stated that faith or believing are the only things necessary to achieving salvation. If one reads the entire Catechism one finds a surprisingly large number of things which are stated as necessary for salvation in addition to faith.

 

[Secundulus]

Of course it does, but it does not state that salvation is by God's grace alone. The Catechism provides a fully rounded view of God's grace as part and parcel of salvation, but hardly the only element. In addition to God's grace there are the sacraments and a large variety of works, all of which are either necessary or at least contributing to salvation. I simply cited one example, baptism, which is hardly a caricature, but is clearly stated as being essential to salvation. Please show me how this is false as it comes word-for-word from the catechism.

Baptism was commanded by God. Believing God and doing what he said is part of a living faith.

Thinking that you will obtain salvation in some other manner than that which God said is falling into Satan's trap just as Eve did in the Garden.

“But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. ” (Genesis 3:4, ESV)

 

[bbbbbbb]

I would imagine that he has a proper understanding of the word "Faith."

Please go back and review his posts. He did not address the issue of faith, but of grace and stated that salvation is by God's grace apart from works and that the Catechism of the Catholic Church stated as such. I merely cited one example from the Catechism which apparently contradicts his allegation.

Thus, according to you he ought to flee such a belief for the good of his soul if I am not mistaken.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Baptism was commanded by God. Believing God and doing what he said is part of a living faith.

Thinking that you will obtain salvation in some other manner than that which God said is falling into Satan's trap just as Eve did in the Garden.

“But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. ” (Genesis 3:4, ESV)

So, now you are accusing poor LionRoad of have fallen into Satan's trap just as Eve did in the Garden because he asserted that salvation is by God's grace apart from works.

Please bear in mind that the statements under scrutiny by myself were those made by him and no other.

 

[Secundulus]

I have absolutely no problem with this section of the Catechism as representing Catholic belief. However, you will do well to note that no where in these paragraphs is it stated that faith or believing are the only things necessary to achieving salvation. If one reads the entire Catechism one finds a surprisingly large number of things which are stated as necessary for salvation in addition to faith.

You are limited by your definition of faith. It is not simply believing, it is doing.

Simply believing by itself will get you nowhere except on the fast track to hell.

“Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ” (James 2:19–20, D-R)

 

[Secundulus]

So, now you are accusing poor LionRoad of have fallen into Satan's trap just as Eve did in the Garden because he asserted that salvation is by God's grace apart from works.

Please bear in mind that the statements under scrutiny by myself were those made by him and no other.

Link me back to the specific posts in question so I know what you are talking about.