John Wesley and Holiness.

[Phil W]

Paul is not talking about the past. In fact, it is very clear he is speaking in the present tense.

Some of Rom 7 is in the present tense, but another part of it is in the present-narrative, or present-historical tense.
The greatest proof of this is verse 23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
How can that be determined to be in the past?
By reading Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Some of Rom 7 is a before scenario, and Rom 8 is the after scenario..

"Freed from sin" is that we are freed from the consequences of sin, which is death. It does not mean we are freed from sinning.

Without adding the "man's wisdom's wording", you are wrong.
I have been freed from sin, just as Rom 6:7 says...and that agrees with Jesus' words in John 8:32-34..."The truth will free you from committing sin."

We are sinning when we do *anything* (even those we perceive to be good things) if it draws us further away from God. Harming other people, even if unintentionally, would be included.

Of course.
But those walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh don't do things that draw ourselves or others away from God.

But who can detect their errors? Clear me from hidden faults. (Psalm 19:12)

All of Psalm 19 is a perfect prayer OT for an OT man, because now in the NT the Law of God is written in our hearts.
It is part of the divine nature we are given at our rebirth.

James is still not claiming that lust is the *only* way to bring forth sin. That's your claim.

Then why didn't he provide another method?
He was declaring, by the Spirit of God, that sins require enticement, lust, and conception.

It is unfortunate that you have been deceived somehow to believe that you have no sin as it only hinders your growth in faith and maturity as a Christian.

Retaining a heart bent on committing sin is a sign of no repentance from sin or of rebirth from God's seed.
It is death.
Jesus commanded our perfection, in Matt 5:48.
You call that unfortunate?

We see numerous examples throughout scriptures, both in the OT and NT, of believers who continue to sin even after being born again, so either all of those people including Paul walked in darkness for the entirety of their lives, or there is something not right about your interpretation. Through Jesus Christ, we are cleansed of the guilt of our sin and the consequence (death) of our sin, but we still continue to sin, and it is very obvious in observing the lives of any human being on earth, including all Christians, that we still continue to sin. To believe otherwise is willfully ignoring that which is easy for anyone to observe.

There was no rebirth in the OT, so half your basis for arguing we can still commit sin is gone.
And your only"example" from the NY was proven untrue above.

A big part of how we walk in the light in the first place is to regularly confess our sins and is also how Jesus taught his disciples to pray.

Regularly?
God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31)
Committing sin is THE sign you are not walking in the light.
It is written..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)

Our relationship with God is restored and reconciled and "made new" through Christ, but we still sin. Easily observable just by watching people go about their lives, including the lives of devout, born-again Christians.

You seem to have bought the lie of the evil one...that nobody can serve God.
It isn't true, and we can all serve God the way God wants to be served.
Love God above all else and love your neighbor as you want to be loved.
It's not impossible !

I am speaking of our physical, mortal, corrupted bodies that are still susceptible to temptation.

That is too bad.
My "physical, mortal, corrupted body" was killed on the cross with Christ and I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

 

[bekkilyn]

Some of Rom 7 is in the present tense, but another part of it is in the present-narrative, or present-historical tense.
The greatest proof of this is verse 23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
How can that be determined to be in the past?
By reading Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Some of Rom 7 is a before scenario, and Rom 8 is the after scenario..

Without adding the "man's wisdom's wording", you are wrong.
I have been freed from sin, just as Rom 6:7 says...and that agrees with Jesus' words in John 8:32-34..."The truth will free you from committing sin."

Of course.
But those walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh don't do things that draw ourselves or others away from God.

All of Psalm 19 is a perfect prayer OT for an OT man, because now in the NT the Law of God is written in our hearts.
It is part of the divine nature we are given at our rebirth.

Then why didn't he provide another method?
He was declaring, by the Spirit of God, that sins require enticement, lust, and conception.

Retaining a heart bent on committing sin is a sign of no repentance from sin or of rebirth from God's seed.
It is death.
Jesus commanded our perfection, in Matt 5:48.
You call that unfortunate?

There was no rebirth in the OT, so half your basis for arguing we can still commit sin is gone.
And your only"example" from the NY was proven untrue above.

Regularly?
God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31)
Committing sin is THE sign you are not walking in the light.
It is written..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)

You seem to have bought the lie of the evil one...that nobody can serve God.
It isn't true, and we can all serve God the way God wants to be served.
Love God above all else and love your neighbor as you want to be loved.
It's not impossible !

That is too bad.
My "physical, mortal, corrupted body" was killed on the cross with Christ and I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

What is too bad is how deeply you have been deceived. 1 John 1:8 is speaking of saved, born-again people, in the present. A person walking in darkness has no concern for sin, that person does not have the ongoing and ever-present struggle between the spirit and the flesh that Paul talks about in Romans 7. Only saved people do. The doctrine of sinless perfection is a very spiritually dangerous heresy...when you are caught up in it, you lose the ability to recognize and thus confess your own wrongdoings to God.

 

[faroukfarouk]

What is too bad is how deeply you have been deceived. 1 John 1:8 is speaking of saved, born-again people, in the present. A person walking in darkness has no concern for sin, that person does not have the ongoing and ever-present struggle between the spirit and the flesh that Paul talks about in Romans 7. Only saved people do. The doctrine of sinless perfection is a very spiritually dangerous heresy...when you are caught up in it, you lose the ability to recognize and thus confess your own wrongdoings to God.

Romans 8 has the glorious answer to the supposed idea of sinless perfection: obedience is God's work and the truly redeemed are thus secure.

 

[Phil W]

What is too bad is how deeply you have been deceived. 1 John 1:8 is speaking of saved, born-again people, in the present.

No, it is differentiating between the walk in the darkness, sin, and a walk in the light, God.
Sinners can't say they have no sin.
Those washed of all their past sins by the blood of Christ can say it.
It is, of course, incumbent on us to remain in the light; but God has provided everything we will need to do just that,
Like 1 Cor 10:13.

A person walking in darkness has no concern for sin,

You are mistaken, as even I once walked in darkness/sin, but I desired freedom from it...and was granted that freedom.
Thanks be to God !

that person does not have the ongoing and ever-present struggle between the spirit and the flesh that Paul talks about in Romans 7. Only saved people do. The doctrine of sinless perfection is a very spiritually dangerous heresy...when you are caught up in it, you lose the ability to recognize and thus confess your own wrongdoings to God.

If one is struggling with the flesh, it is because they still have it.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins will alleviate that condition with the death of said flesh and rebirth from the seed of God.
It is written of in Rom 6:3-6.

 

[Phil W]

Romans 8 has the glorious answer to the supposed idea of sinless perfection: obedience is God's work and the truly redeemed are thus secure.

"Supposed" idea?
Your post left me wondering if you agree with the scriptures outlining perfect obedience to Father or not.

 

[bekkilyn]

No, it is differentiating between the walk in the darkness, sin, and a walk in the light, God.
Sinners can't say they have no sin.
Those washed of all their past sins by the blood of Christ can say it.
It is, of course, incumbent on us to remain in the light; but God has provided everything we will need to do just that,
Like 1 Cor 10:13.

You are mistaken, as even I once walked in darkness/sin, but I desired freedom from it...and was granted that freedom.
Thanks be to God !

If one is struggling with the flesh, it is because they still have it.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins will alleviate that condition with the death of said flesh and rebirth from the seed of God.
It is written of in Rom 6:3-6.

So now your claim is that you are walking around in your fully immortal, transformed physical body, that even Christ himself did not wear until after his resurrection? You claim that you are perfect and faultless in every possible way? (Ever heard of the sin of pride?)

Even your favorite, James, states in chapter three that ALL of us make many mistakes and that *no one* is able to tame the tongue. He is not talking to an assembly of unbelievers, but born-again, baptized Christians who he calls his brothers and sisters.

Even someone who has never read even a verse of scripture could look on you (or anyone) and see that such a claim is ridiculous for any human being who is not also God. The only way a person could think as you do is to be entirely deceived and contort scripture to pretend that it says only what you want it to say and conveniently ignore all the numerous places it contradicts your view.

Your view denies the entire sanctification process. In Philippians 1:6, Paul addresses more born-again, baptized Christians and talks about God who *began* a good work in them and that it would be brought to completion in the day of Jesus Christ. That day was obviously not the resurrection as Paul is speaking of a *future* time and that future time has not yet arrived even for us.

I don't know whether you have been trying to interpret what you read in scripture on your own and coming up with these things, or if someone has been filling you with these false teachings of sinless perfection and that you thus no longer have any need of God's grace or any further spiritual maturity or growth in faith, but you are on a very spiritually dangerous and deceiving path.

Too many have been falsely convinced they cannot sin and end up doing great harm and even violence to other people.

 

[Phil W]

So now your claim is that you are walking around in your fully immortal, transformed physical body, that even Christ himself did not wear until after his resurrection?

Nope, not at all.
I await my glorified body as Paul did in Phil 3:21.

You claim that you are perfect and faultless in every possible way? (Ever heard of the sin of pride?)

Ever heard about glorifying the God who made it possible?
It is written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: " (Rom 3:21-22)
That "righteousness" is alive and well on earth now.

Even your favorite, James, states in chapter three that ALL of us make many mistakes and that *no one* is able to tame the tongue. He is not talking to an assembly of unbelievers, but born-again, baptized Christians who he calls his brothers and sisters.

As James writes..."But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison" (James 3:21)...though "we" cannot tame it, God can.
By our submission to Him and His wishes, our tongue, not to mention any other fleshly part of us, hasn't any power to compel us to do that which is contrary to God.
Oh, the glories of rebirth !

Even someone who has never read even a verse of scripture could look on you (or anyone) and see that such a claim is ridiculous for any human being who is not also God. The only way a person could think as you do is to be entirely deceived and contort scripture to pretend that it says only what you want it to say and conveniently ignore all the numerous places it contradicts your view.

Were freedom to be submissive to God a deception, Jesus' suffering and death would have been a waste of time.
Jesus Himself said the truth could free us from service to sin. (John 8:32-34)

Your view denies the entire sanctification process. In Philippians 1:6, Paul addresses more born-again, baptized Christians and talks about God who *began* a good work in them and that it would be brought to completion in the day of Jesus Christ. That day was obviously not the resurrection as Paul is speaking of a *future* time and that future time has not yet arrived even for us.

What "process"?
Sanctification happens when one is made new and had their old sins washed away by the blood of Christ...at baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. It is when and where the atoning, sanctifying blood of Christ is applied to our bodies.

I don't know whether you have been trying to interpret what you read in scripture on your own and coming up with these things, or if someone has been filling you with these false teachings of sinless perfection and that you thus no longer have any need of God's grace or any further spiritual maturity or growth in faith, but you are on a very spiritually dangerous and deceiving path.

Quite the contrary.
My God given ability to always be in submission to God is the results of what Jesus did on earth, in the flesh.
He conquered sin.
And by His grace, I have been enabled not only to walk as Jesus walked but to spread the ongoing message of freedom from satan and of his claims of unending servitude to sin.
That is the false teachings the world loves because they love sin more than they love God.

Too many have been falsely convinced they cannot sin and end up doing great harm and even violence to other people.

What a pathetic message from...not heaven.
It is those you support, the sinners, who are doing harm to others.

Don't be a sinner anymore.

 

[bekkilyn]

Nope, not at all.
I await my glorified body as Paul did in Phil 3:21.

If you can't commit sin in the body you are wearing now, then why do you need yet another new one? Now you are contradicting yourself.

Ever heard about glorifying the God who made it possible?
It is written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: " (Rom 3:21-22)
That "righteousness" is alive and well on earth now.

Righteousness is not the same as sinless. And we are only *declared* righteous because Christ is righteous. We have no righteousness of our own.

As James writes..."But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison" (James 3:21)...though "we" cannot tame it, God can.
By our submission to Him and His wishes, our tongue, not to mention any other fleshly part of us, hasn't any power to compel us to do that which is contrary to God.
Oh, the glories of rebirth !

And yet here you are, arguing your own faultlessness.

Were freedom to be submissive to God a deception, Jesus' suffering and death would have been a waste of time.
Jesus Himself said the truth could free us from service to sin. (John 8:32-34)

And yet he never once said we wouldn't continue to struggle with it.

What "process"?
Sanctification happens when one is made new and had their old sins washed away by the blood of Christ...at baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. It is when and where the atoning, sanctifying blood of Christ is applied to our bodies.

You are speaking of Justification, not Sanctification. Justification is when we are declared "not guilty" of our sins by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Still doesn't mean we never once commit another sin ever again. And justification is for the remission of ALL sins, past, present, and future.

Quite the contrary.
My God given ability to always be in submission to God is the results of what Jesus did on earth, in the flesh.
He conquered sin.
And by His grace, I have been enabled not only to walk as Jesus walked but to spread the ongoing message of freedom from satan and of his claims of unending servitude to sin.
That is the false teachings the world loves because they love sin more than they love God.

And yet you, even as a reborn, baptized Christian still continue to sin. You are a sinner as I am a sinner as every human being is a sinner. What is wonderful is that in Christ, we are forgiven.

What a pathetic message from...not heaven.
It is those you support, the sinners, who are doing harm to others.

Don't be a sinner anymore.

Admit that you are a sinner and confess.

 

[Rawtheran]

If you can't commit sin in the body you are wearing now, then why do you need yet another new one? Now you are contradicting yourself.



Righteousness is not the same as sinless. And we are only *declared* righteous because Christ is righteous. We have no righteousness of our own.



And yet here you are, arguing your own faultlessness.



And yet he never once said we wouldn't continue to struggle with it.



You are speaking of Justification, not Sanctification. Justification is when we are declared "not guilty" of our sins by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Still doesn't mean we never once commit another sin ever again. And justification is for the remission of ALL sins, past, present, and future.



And yet you, even as a reborn, baptized Christian still continue to sin. You are a sinner as I am a sinner as every human being is a sinner. What is wonderful is that in Christ, we are forgiven.



Admit that you are a sinner and confess.

Rebecca you are just awesome!

 

[Phil W]

If you can't commit sin in the body you are wearing now, then why do you need yet another new one? Now you are contradicting yourself.

My would the vessel I walk in have any effect on my actions?
It is Christ's vessel now. (Gal 2:20)

Righteousness is not the same as sinless. And we are only *declared* righteous because Christ is righteous. We have no righteousness of our own.

That is the reason we must be reborn, of God's seed.
Being made new creatures, in Christ, we can BE righteous.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

And yet here you are, arguing your own faultlessness.

"And yet" what?

And yet he never once said we wouldn't continue to struggle with it.

Why would we struggle with something that is dead? (Rom 6:7, Gal 5:24)

You are speaking of Justification, not Sanctification. Justification is when we are declared "not guilty" of our sins by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Still doesn't mean we never once commit another sin ever again.

How many "justifications" has Christ had to die for so far on your behalf?
Heb 6:4-6 addresses your choices.

And justification is for the remission of ALL sins, past, present, and future.

Then Heb 6:4-6 is a lie.

And yet you, even as a reborn, baptized Christian still continue to sin. You are a sinner as I am a sinner as every human being is a sinner. What is wonderful is that in Christ, we are forgiven.

Only the unrepentant, false Christians will commit sin.

Admit that you are a sinner and confess.

To what end?
So I can be a non-sinner? Even if just for a while?
What is the point of confession if one just returns to their vomit again and again?

A real repentance from sin means never sinning again.
"Turn from" or "change" are the definitions of repentance I see.
If one keeps sinning there was no "turn" or "change".

So I guess you are anti-holiness?

 

[bekkilyn]

My would the vessel I walk in have any effect on my actions?
It is Christ's vessel now. (Gal 2:20)

That is the reason we must be reborn, of God's seed.
Being made new creatures, in Christ, we can BE righteous.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

"And yet" what?

Why would we struggle with something that is dead? (Rom 6:7, Gal 5:24)

How many "justifications" has Christ had to die for so far on your behalf?
Heb 6:4-6 addresses your choices.

Then Heb 6:4-6 is a lie.

Only the unrepentant, false Christians will commit sin.

To what end?
So I can be a non-sinner? Even if just for a while?
What is the point of confession if one just returns to their vomit again and again?

A real repentance from sin means never sinning again.
"Turn from" or "change" are the definitions of repentance I see.
If one keeps sinning there was no "turn" or "change".

So I guess you are anti-holiness?

Based on all of your comments in this thread and the way you misread scripture to try to convince yourself that you are faultless (again, ever heard of the sin of pride?), it would seem that you haven't even begun to understand the concept of holiness to be able to make such an accusation of others. Through Christ, one may only be free of the dominion of sin, which is not at all the same as being sinless or never sinning again. If you refuse to even acknowledge and confess your sins and regularly, then you remain immature in your faith and your sanctification is stunted. It is a denial of the need for God's grace in your life.

 

[anna ~ grace]

My would the vessel I walk in have any effect on my actions?
It is Christ's vessel now. (Gal 2:20)


That is the reason we must be reborn, of God's seed.
Being made new creatures, in Christ, we can BE righteous.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.


"And yet" what?


Why would we struggle with something that is dead? (Rom 6:7, Gal 5:24)


How many "justifications" has Christ had to die for so far on your behalf?
Heb 6:4-6 addresses your choices.


Then Heb 6:4-6 is a lie.


Only the unrepentant, false Christians will commit sin.


To what end?
So I can be a non-sinner? Even if just for a while?
What is the point of confession if one just returns to their vomit again and again?

A real repentance from sin means never sinning again.
"Turn from" or "change" are the definitions of repentance I see.
If one keeps sinning there was no "turn" or "change".

So I guess you are anti-holiness?

So, this means that Holiness does mean and teach absolute sinlessness and spiritual perfection in this life. As underood by the Wesleyan Holiness churches.

 

[bekkilyn]

So, this means that Holiness does mean and teach absolute sinlessness and spiritual perfection in this life. As underood by the Wesleyan Holiness churches.

You might be interested in this article which better helps to define a Wesleyan view of Christian Perfection or Entire Sanctification. As Wesley never taught that we could be absolutely free of all sin in this life, I doubt any Wesleyan-based church would teach it as standard doctrine.

John Wesley's Christian Perfection: Myths, Realities, and Critique

 

[anna ~ grace]

You might be interested in this article which better helps to define a Wesleyan view of Christian Perfection or Entire Sanctification. As Wesley never taught that we could be absolutely free of all sin in this life, I doubt any Wesleyan-based church would teach it as standard doctrine.

John Wesley's Christian Perfection: Myths, Realities, and Critique

That's an interesting article, thank you. It does seem that Wesley urged believers to be sinless, in some sense, and taught that this was possible.

 

[bekkilyn]

That's an interesting article, thank you. It does seem that Wesley urged believers to be sinless, in some sense, and taught that this was possible.

In some sense, yes, but not in a flawless sense, and he definitely didn't teach that it was a permanent state that could never be lost.

Here is another article that may help:

Holiness, Entire Sanctification, and the Redirected Heart - Seedbed

 

[bmjackson]

If you want to become confused about the doctrine of entire sanctification, then read writings since the latter half of the last century. In general, since then, the writers just know the doctrine and have not entered the state themselves. Those who have entered it can spot them immediately.

Wesley is also, though better than they, not very clear. There are much better holiness teachers than he. Or his writings have been corrupted, which l feel is not unusual especially with the big stars like Wesley.

Holiness teaching is that a man can reach a state in this life where he will not sin. But he can fall from that state as did Peter when Paul confronted him.

A fall back into carnality can and should be reversed, but scripture tells us in Hebrews that it is not simple.

Wesley records that some fell 3or 4 times. When he says 'mistakes' he gives an example of thinking too highly of a person then finding that was mistaken. He means that we never have an infinite mind and know everything.

 

[bmjackson]

Entire sanctification, is something to be experienced, not a subject of debate. It is spiritual so it cannot be explained or understood entirely with the mind.

It is very simple really. All that is required is for one to actually take notice of what God is saying to you - that still small voice, that you are accustomed to ignore or if it is accusing you of any sin, say it is the devil. No, the devil does not convict us of sin. The Holy Spirit does in order to lead us to a repentance and an entire consecration of ourselves to Christ.

You do not need to understand the doctrine fully to get there. But it does need a determination to get there and not just idle curiosity. God has a way with idle curiosity that leads to more confusion.

 

[bekkilyn]

Note that John Wesley made no claims of entire sanctification for himself. Be very wary of those who do.

Wesley records that some fell 3or 4 times. When he says 'mistakes' he gives an example of thinking too highly of a person then finding that was mistaken. He means that we never have an infinite mind and know everything.

Even with these "mistakes," Wesley still stated that they were in need of atonement even as he was reluctant to call them sins per se, but what else besides sins would be in need of atonement?

When it comes to entire sanctification, I think it needs to be clear that we are really speaking primarily of voluntary sins when it comes to being in a state of "not sinning". We are still sinners while residing in our corruptible flesh, and the moment we think of ourselves as otherwise, we have fallen prey to sin.

And it's definitely not a state of someone saying the sinner's prayer, getting baptized, and are therefore magically incapable of sinning ever again.

 

[bmjackson]

I agree that ES does not typically occur at conversion and neither did Wesley.

If he himself was not ES'ed then he would have been recorded of seeking it which he was not. I think he avoided claiming it because of the position he was in and the endless questions and disputes he would have with others asking him in if he sinned.

He claimed that mistakes need atoning agreed. I don't agree with him on that one.

 

[bekkilyn]

I agree that ES does not typically occur at conversion and neither did Wesley.

If he himself was not ES'ed then he would have been recorded of seeking it which he was not. I think he avoided claiming it because of the position he was in and the endless questions and disputes he would have with others asking him in if he sinned.

He claimed that mistakes need atoning agreed. I don't agree with him on that one.

I also think that the closer one gets to God, the deeper relationship we develop with him and him with us, the more we realize how extraordinarily much we fall short in comparison with him. How could we in good conscience therefore call ourselves sinless and without need of any further grace or atonement?