John 5:7

[saladin1970]

The most important verse for affirming the trinity in the Bible, in crystal clear words

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

So what happened. Why has it been expunged, removed, thrown out of the Bible. Why was is it that it is no longer in the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc

Is this a case of 'the inspired' word of god, or rather the 'uninspired' word of god?

 

[alyaba]

i am waiting for the answer of this one to, and i wonder if it was thrown out in the days of constantine when they debated and agreed on the trinity 300 years after jesus, would christians still believe in the trinity.

 

[Deren]

The most important verse for affirming the trinity in the Bible, in crystal clear words

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

So what happened. Why has it been expunged, removed, thrown out of the Bible. Why was is it that it is no longer in the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc

Is this a case of 'the inspired' word of god, or rather the 'uninspired' word of god?

It is a case where a person, Erasmus, decided to insert something into the inspired text (the Comma Johanneum) that was not there to appease someone else (Stunica). Therefore, in the words of Bruce Metzger, "The Comma probably originated as a piece of allegorical exegesis of the three witnesses and may have been written as a marginal gloss in a Latin manuscript of 1 John, when it was taken into the text of the Old Latin Bible during the fifth century. The passage does not appear in manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate before about A.D. 800" (The Text of the New Testament, 102).

The bottom line is that the wording of 1 John 5:7-8 has no textual support in the Greek, which is why the above English translations have decided to exclude it.

 

[arunma]

What Deren said is absolutely correct. The Johannene Comma is found only in a few Latin manuscripts, and in the Textus Receptus. As far as I know, there are no Greek manuscripts which include it. Thanks to modern Biblical scholarship, the science of textual criticism can be used to determine the true text of the Bible, and the Johannene Comma isn't in it. So it is not as if the contents of the Holy Scriptures is uncertain.

 

[saladin1970]

so since 800 ad, i.e for 1200 years, you guys have been reading the uninspired word of god as the inspired word of god.
Now, that doesn't give me a very fuzzy warm feeling

 

[Abbadon]

so since 800 ad, i.e for 1200 years, you guys have been reading the uninspired word of god as the inspired word of god.
Now, that doesn't give me a very fuzzy warm feeling

I think there point was that that uninspired portion was added to an inspired text, some 700 years after it had been written.

Basically, it's kind of like someone trying to put a few more words into a verse in the Quran about 700 years after it was written, and then a Christian would come along and say "this is removed from the original! Why the whole document must have been treated that way!"

 

[arunma]

so since 800 ad, i.e for 1200 years, you guys have been reading the uninspired word of god as the inspired word of god.
Now, that doesn't give me a very fuzzy warm feeling

It ought to give me the same feeling that it probably gives Muslims when a Hadith is proven to be false.

But it isn't much of an issue, since Christians before 1611 would have read other translations of the Bible (or perhaps the original Greek and Hebrew). Even after 1611, the Johannene Comma would only have been read by English-speaking Christians who read the King James Version. After 1900, better translations became available.

It is noteworthy that the Biblical commentator Adam Clarke, who commented on the King James Bible, was well aware that the Johannene Comma did not belong in the Bible. So it is not as though this fact was only discovered in recent times.

 

[saladin1970]

It ought to give me the same feeling that it probably gives Muslims when a Hadith is proven to be false.

But it isn't much of an issue, since Christians before 1611 would have read other translations of the Bible (or perhaps the original Greek and Hebrew). Even after 1611, the Johannene Comma would only have been read by English-speaking Christians who read the King James Version. After 1900, better translations became available.

It is noteworthy that the Biblical commentator Adam Clarke, who commented on the King James Bible, was well aware that the Johannene Comma did not belong in the Bible. So it is not as though this fact was only discovered in recent times.

sure, most of the people in engand, france etc were fluent in hebrew and greek. It was the second language, and they were all literate and schooled.

It is funny how you would compare the very basis of christian theology, i.e trinity and the ONE and ONLY verse that explicitly states it turns out to be a lie. With prophetic hadith. WHich hadith would have that importance. I am trying to figure that one out, perhaps you can help me

 

[arunma]

It is funny how you would compare the very basis of christian theology, i.e trinity and the ONE and ONLY verse that explicitly states it turns out to be a lie.

The doctrine of the Trinity does not depend on the Johannene Comma. The very word Trinity was first mentioned in the writing, Theophillus of Antioch to Autolycus, Chapter 15. This was written circa 180 AD. And even the heretics at the Nicene Council believed in the Trinity. This doctrine has been around for quite awhile. So if this Injeel of yours was corrupted by the Christians, it would have to have happened very early on in the church.

Besides that, no one has said that the Johannene Comma is a lie. It is a manuscript error which found its way into a single Greek text: the Textus Receptus. There are well over 5,000 ancient manuscript witnesses in Greek alone, several of which include the First Epistle of Saint John. Do you mean to negate the work of God on account of a single Greek manuscript which dates to the fifteenth century?

 

[saladin1970]

and most of which contain various books such as the book of jubilees, the book of enoch, the account of adam and eve, etc. All expunged books , that appear in some cannons and not in others.

But us not distract from the significance of john 5:7.

Regardless of how or why it was introduced, or found out later, it has been part of the bible cannon since 800 until recently, and then it was removed.

This is the ONLY verse that describes the trinity. It may have been a word bounded about between the various bishops from antioch to constantinople, but these were not considered the INSPIRED word of god.

It is not a question of NEGATION of god's words, but a reflection of not only scriptual corruption but corruption of the meaning of the scriptures that has allowed the church to deviate from the timeless pattern of God (not of this world) and prophethood of this world, with the two having no metaphysical relationship in their make up, being completely seperate and not the same in any shape or form

 

[Osiris]

saladin, i don't see the difference between this and the satanic verses that were expunged from the quran.

 

[saladin1970]

if jesus ammended the gospels during his lifetime, or that which he taught then it would still be considered divine. Likewise during the prophethood of Mohammed

if man ammends afterwards , then what is the limit of this 'inspiration'. Could we include one verse today, and remove it tomorrow and say it was the 'inspired choice of god'.

were those christians who found evidence to persecute darkies justified in their 'inspiration' of the scriptures?

 

[obi1kanobi]

The Truth is; Constantine called the council at Nicea because of disputes among the so-called "Christian" leaders. Many simple Truth´s were and are ommited from the original New Testament Scriptures, in order to appease the arguing factions. Remember, Constantine was still a sun worshipper at this time !
It is also a Fact that The Holy Ghost was NOT incorporated or accepted as
part of the Trinity until 65 years or so later !!!
It is also so blatantly clear that the Godhead are ALL individual, ALL one in aim and purpose.
One can also see how many different doctrines have come about, doctrines of men, NOT god !
As for Mohammed, I believe he was visited by an angel, but NOT from God the Father. My reason for this is from his own testimony that; After frequent visitations in the cave, he would run, terrified and trembling to his wife, who would comfort him.
The only comforter is the Holy Ghost of a God of Pure Love !!!
In the New Testiment alone, it is written around 360 times, that when an Angel from the Lord appeared to men, the first words uttered are, "Fear Not".
Satan and his demons can also appear as an angel of light and fear commeth from the devil.
I hope I have helped !

 

[arunma]

The Truth is; Constantine called the council at Nicea because of disputes among the so-called "Christian" leaders. Many simple Truth´s were and are ommited from the original New Testament Scriptures, in order to appease the arguing factions. Remember, Constantine was still a sun worshipper at this time !

Do you have any evidence to suggest that Emperor Constantine worshiped the sun at the time that he presided over the Nicene Council? Even so, please remember that his influence in the council was minimal. Because he was not baptized, the church did not even permit him to vote.

 

[TeabagJive]

Is this a case of 'the inspired' word of god, or rather the 'uninspired' word of god?

Believe me, when I say the Bible is anything but the inherent word of God.

However, Deren and Arunma pretty much gave rock solid answers. The concept of the Trinity orginated way before the Johannene Comma and the issue was found and adressed.

 

[obi1kanobi]

Do you have any evidence to suggest that Emperor Constantine worshiped the sun at the time that he presided over the Nicene Council? Even so, please remember that his influence in the council was minimal. Because he was not baptized, the church did not even permit him to vote.

Please check your encyclopedia and history books.
Remember, Faith and Prayer are the True evidence of God and His works.
The Apostacy continues my friend !

 

[copticorthodoxy]

i want to tell muslims that the christians are honest and if they were not honest you will not know that verse is added in some translations
the trinity is not based on this verse !! we believe in the trinity from all the bible and this verse is not important to prove the trinity ,
i belong to the church of Alexandria ( coptic orthodox ) which is founded in 62 AD. and we believe in the trinity before the New Testament is writen and this verse is not in the coptic version .
the muslims always fight the true trinity God because they worship another God , their God order them to fight all the world to spread their religion
" Jesus Christ is full man and full God "

 

[copticorthodoxy]

if jesus ammended the gospels during his lifetime, or that which he taught then it would still be considered divine. Likewise during the prophethood of Mohammed

if man ammends afterwards , then what is the limit of this 'inspiration'. Could we include one verse today, and remove it tomorrow and say it was the 'inspired choice of god'.

were those christians who found evidence to persecute darkies justified in their 'inspiration' of the scriptures?

it seem that you don't know the history of the quran !!!
there were alot of quran versions and el khalifa Osman ibn Afan burned them and kept one version to be used by muslims , and some muslims killed him for that
that happened after many years after Mohamed , go and read your history

 

[Deren]

so since 800 ad, i.e for 1200 years, you guys have been reading the uninspired word of god as the inspired word of god.

That is not what was said. For regardless of the inclusion of 1 John 5:7, there are numerous other Scriptures which point to a Trinitarian relationship within the Godhead.

Now, that doesn't give me a very fuzzy warm feeling

Good. Because "fuzzy warm feelings" are not the basis of truth.

 

[Deren]

It is funny how you would compare the very basis of christian theology, i.e trinity and the ONE and ONLY verse that explicitly states it turns out to be a lie.

It is not a lie, though. So why are you jumping to conclusions, and making a mountain out of a molehill, especially when other references point to a Trinitarian relationship in the Godhead?