Uncle Bud said:
What was amazing is that I wasn't looking for God I was looking to die (John 8:24). I had been shown the sin in my life (John 16:8), and was terrified to keep going on. Grace came (Romans 5:15) and I was saved by my faith in Gods Son (Luke 7:50).
God's grace came... before you had faith. Saved by grace through faith. But the Scripture indicates that "God made us alive". I again return to the dry bones analogy, dry bones don't come alive of their own will and desire, just as the prophet suggests.
Both. I assented that there was a God (James 2:19), and I did accept his Son (John 10:38), but I put my trust in Him (2 Corinthians 10:7) more and more (1 Corinthians 1:7-9) as the days went on. I assume I was more alive the minute He became a part of me as I was reborn (John 3:3-8),
Still there's a problem here. You seem to be saying that you were reborn by your actions, or your faith, rather than the grace of God. I would propose to you that if you review the Scriptures I've posted and the exegesis I've provided you'll see that God was working to bring you to faith prior to your assent to His Son's Lordship. In fact, I would propose that your faith was, like the army of formerly-dry-bones, the result of God's work in you to make you alive and place His Spirit in you first.
Again, drawing from Romans 8, we have to acknowledge what is said in v9. Apart from the indwelling Spirit of God a person is in the flesh, and given the words of v7-8 "cannot please God".
...but each day I began to realize how new I really was, and each day I believed on Him more. Through repentance (Romans 2:4) I learned obedience (Matthew 28:20), through obedience I learned what it means to trust God. The more I trust (Hebrews 2:13) God the more He blesses me.
Consider that God blessed you even prior to you trusting in Him, in various ways. It was God's favor, de-merited by you, by which you came to faith in Him in the first place.
I don't mean to be sarcastic, but did you consider that might already be aware of all of this? Try to be a wee bit less condescending okay?
I'm attempting to discuss some seemingly advanced topics, specifically the so-called "ordo salutis" with you, I have no idea of your previous experience with these things, so if I'm repeating myself or going over things that are elementary, forgive me. I'm more used to speaking to people who have very limited knowledge of Scripture.
It pleased God that I would accept His Son (Hebrews 11:6). At some point when I accepted what Christ did, the Holy Spirit came in and I was reborn of the Spirit (John 3:5).
Therefore, it seems to be your position that you were born-again as a result of your faith, rather than being born-again unto faith. Is this correct?
You see God responding to your faith by birthing (eh?! is that the word?!) you?
Let me ask you one more question... what was it that made you believe but your neighbor not believe? Were you smarter or more spiritual prior?
Not meaning to be rude but you might want to ask somebody next time if they want or even think they need help before offering help.
This is a discussion board, we're here to discuss. When I said "help", I meant to "help you understand what I am saying".
See, it seems to me that in your view, we do something and God responds.
That is correct. Having faith is doing something (Habakkuk 2:4).
I see, so salvation is not a gift but a wage one earns for "doing something"?
Thus we are the initiators of salvation and God is simply responding to our efforts.
That is incorrect. The initial response, the initial act was from God when He sent Himself to die for my sins on the cross (John 3:16-17). I had nothing to do with that (Romans 1:16). He started the ball rolling I just accepted what He did for me. I didn't save myself by accepting His act, He saved me (Titus 2:11).
Some will say if God died for all mans sins, then God must have failed because not all men are saved (John 16:8-9). Poppycock. God did not fail, man failed to recieve the Grace that God provided. He did all that anyone could have asked but they must accept it, believe in Him for themselves, to receive what was done for them, not by them.
I see, so is it your position that God has enabled each and every man who ever lived to have faith in Him?
If so, please explain what caused you to have faith where someone else did not.
John 3:16 "For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life."
Now I understand that you are of a different view than I and by being so, you look at things in a different light than I do. But to me, whosoever means anyone who.
No, not really a different view on this verse. Yet I think the following verses are telling of the "anyone who", v18 states that the unbelieving are "judged already"... Therefore the "whoever" are those who believe, not potentially believe. Thus this one verse simply shows God's sending His Son to save those who would believe, not God's sending His Son to potentially save some who might believe. There is a difference in intent there.
I also want to point out that terms "greatly" and "dearly prized" are not in the text anywhere and are improper additions. The Greek therein actually means something closer to the following:
"For God loved the creation in this manner... ".
The "so" in the verse is not an expression of amount or quality, but an expression of intent. Yet time and again this is how the verse is read by well the meaning. It is simply improper to add words to the text of Scripture that the Scripture does not support.
Verses 18-21 go on to express this thusly:
19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
This should be familiar to us, as we've heard it in Romans 3, Eph 2 and in Eze 37, men are evil but God is good. Here's the universal statement, not that God is hoping to save some people that might, perhaps, hopefully be saved, but that God sent His Son to an evil world.
As Romans 3:23 states "all have sinned". Therefore v19 is about all of us.
20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
Is it your position that prior to hearing the Gospel that you were not evil? If you agree that you were evil, what made you come to the light whereas others will not?
21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
If you came to the light, was it because you had the ability, or because God made you alive with Christ? Again let me draw from the rest of the book of John to show you what I'm saying.
John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Receiving Christ is how we become children of God (I'm sure we'd agree) but how does one who is a child of satan (and thus wrath, Eph 2:1-2) 'receive' that which is enemy of him? God tells us in v13: "...born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Just as chapter 3 explains:
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Prior to being born-again you could not even see the kingdom of God, much less 'accept it'. Back in chapt 1 it says that those who receive the kingdom of God are "...born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Yet you seem to be saying that you chose Christ, of your own will. Yet verse one says it was not "of the will of man".
1 Cor 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Unless your heart is first opened to God and the Spirit comes to make you born-again, you cannot believe in God.
Acts 16:14
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
Lydia was a convert to Judiasm and heard Paul's preaching with the other women at that time, but it was Lyida who the Lord opened the heart of.
If Lydia was neutral to God, or even pro-Gospel prior to that, why did God need to "open her heart".
I again point you to Eze 36 wherein the supernatural heart transplant occurs and tell you that this exchange must first occur by the grace of God for the rest of the chapter to be fulfilled. That is, you must be born-again to see the kingdom of God.
Romans 8 shows this clearly, and I sincerely ask you to read thru verses 1-9 and see if what I am saying is not true: without the Spirit of God indwelling one cannot obey God, nor please God, just as it is written.
Thus the Spirit of God came to reside in you, in some manner, prior to your believing in Christ.
Romans 10:12-13 "[No one] for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord over all [of us] and He generously bestows His riches upon all who call upon Him [in faith]. For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved."
Yes, not only Jews were saved but people of the Gentile nations as well, just as it is written, He purchased people from every tribe , nation and tongue.
