John 10:25-27

StevenBelievin

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John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. (ESV)

So, if the Armenian concept of election were true, wouldn't this actually be the other way around? Wouldn't Jesus have said you are not my sheep (or among my sheep) because you don't believe? Apparently the prerequisite of belief is being one of Jesus' sheep. Some people are his sheep and will believe and follow, and some people are not. Isn't that what Jesus is saying in John 10:25-27? In other words being one of Jesus' sheep is equivalent to being one of the Elect.
 

Call me Nic

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Read John 12:37-43. That passage talks about the cause of unbelief and the hardening of men by God.

God hardens them (which is to say that he removes his divine influence from them) so that they can never come to the knowledge of the truth. This in turn makes them reprobate, which means that they're rejected of God. They're rejected because of the blatant disbelief and hardening of their own heart toward God, so God basically gives them up.
 
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RaymondG

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You may be mixing the natural and the spiritual. Jesus goes on to say the following:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"

So these elect that believe are immediately giving eternal life and never perishes after. Do you know of those that have experienced this? I believe this is possible and is true. But this has little to do with the worship with hands.....
 
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Doug Melven

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In other words being one of Jesus' sheep is equivalent to being one of the Elect.
Yes, if you are a sheep, you are one of the elect.
Don't put the cart before the horse.
When you are born again, you become one of the elect.
Not, you are one of the elect, therefore you will be born again.
 
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StevenBelievin

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1 Corinthians 1:22-25

1 Cor 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

This passage would seem to state that everyone is preached to, but only some are effectually called by God and come to belief.
 
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dreadnought

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John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. (ESV)

So, if the Armenian concept of election were true, wouldn't this actually be the other way around? Wouldn't Jesus have said you are not my sheep (or among my sheep) because you don't believe? Apparently the prerequisite of belief is being one of Jesus' sheep. Some people are his sheep and will believe and follow, and some people are not. Isn't that what Jesus is saying in John 10:25-27? In other words being one of Jesus' sheep is equivalent to being one of the Elect.
But then one has to ascertain how to become one of the elect. To become one of the elect, one has to obey the Lord's commandments.
 
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DeaconDean

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When you are born again, you become one of the elect.
Not, you are one of the elect, therefore you will be born again.

Just from this statement, I would ask, if you subscribe to Arminian theology?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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StevenBelievin

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Just from this statement, I would ask, if you subscribe to Arminian theology?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Yes, a reformed person / Calvinist would not say one becomes elect by being born again.
 
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DeaconDean

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Yes, a reformed person / Calvinist would not say one becomes elect by being born again.

I just want to be sure.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse. :doh:

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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No, I am not an Arminian.
Synergist is appropriate.
There are many more viewpoints that Arminianism or Calvinism.

Arminian/Synergist, same thing.

Salvation all hinges on what you do.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Doug Melven

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Arminian/Synergist, same thing.

Salvation all hinges on what you do.

God Bless

Till all are one.
No, they are not.
Arminians have the false doctrine of losing your salvation when you sin. I do not.

You lump everybody who says they are a synergist and say they are Arminian because they have one doctrine in common.
But that would be like saying cars and trucks are the same because they both have 4 wheels.
This lumping in together comes from a feeling of superiority. You may say it is not, but that doesn't make it not so.
The Jews called everybody who was not a Jew a Gentile. This was supposed to be just a foreigner, but the Jews came to believe it meant heathen, or a lower class of people.
The Japanese called anyone not Japanese, Gaijin, barbarian.
This stemmed from a feeling of superiority.
When you call someone an Arminian, especially someone who says they are not, you are insulting them.
You may not mean to insult, but it is still an insult.
Go and look through the threads where Calvinists call people Arminian and you will see that they think of them as inferior people.
When I hear people call me Arminian, I hear the superiority they feel at being Calvinistic. The Creme de la Creme.

My question to you, DeaconDean, how can you, in love, continue to call someone something that they consider an insult?
 
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DeaconDean

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My question to you, DeaconDean, how can you, in love, continue to call someone something that they consider an insult?

When Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees "whited wall" was it an insult?

Calling a spade a spade is not a crime.

Synergism, man co-operating with God to bring about their salvation.

"In Christian theology, synergism is the position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom."

Source

Arminianism, man co-operating with God to bring about their salvation.

"Christians who hold to Arminian theology, such as Methodists, believe that salvation is achieved through "divine/human cooperation", which is referred to as synergism."

Ibid

Same same.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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"Certain modern day Synergists likewise believe one may lose one's salvation should apostasy occur.*"

* See Forelines, Classic Arminianism, 303"

Daniel Kirkpatrick, Monergism or Synergism, Is Salvation Cooperative or the Work of God Alone., The Aspect of Election, p. 81

Sorry to disagree, but...

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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It seems that my comments were taken as an "insult".

My comments on Synergism and Arminianism are correct (man cooperating with God to bring about their own salvation). Back by sources.

And I also provided another quote which backed another comments I said.

I was not directly commenting towards anybody in general, but it was taken that way.

If my comments are incorrect, then please feel free to show me where they are incorrect.

In 13 years on the forums, I have never met a Synergist/Arminian that holds to a "form" of "eternal security".

My apologies.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Doug Melven

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My comments on Synergism and Arminianism are correct (man cooperating with God to bring about their own salvation). Back by sources.
Although our cooperation is absolutely necessary. Once we accept Him, He does what only He can do. He takes us from the kingdom of darkness and brings us into the Kingdom of His Dear Son. We are now His child.
We are born again, a new creation. Once you are born again and a new creation you can't become unborn again, you can't go back to being an old creation.

Can I make it any more clear that I believe we have eternal security?
Can I make it any more clear that I am a synergist?
Can I make it any more clear that I am not an Arminian?
 
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Tayla

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But then one has to ascertain how to become one of the elect. To become one of the elect, one has to obey the Lord's commandments.
Yes, faith requires works, otherwise it's mere belief. Repentance means actually changing what you do. But we are not saved by works.
 
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DeaconDean

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Can I make it any more clear that I am not an Arminian?

Once again, where did I call you an "Arminian"?

Like I said previously, Arminianism and Synergism share the same viewpoint on a couple of items.

Salvation being a "cooperation" of God and man to bring about their own salvation. That's one.

And some modern day Synergists believe a person can lose their salvation if apostasy occurs. That's another.

Now in my previous posts, please show me where DeaconDean said "Doug Melvin is an Arminian."

If you cannot, your claim is baseless.

Like I said, they share several viewpoints the same.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Since I am being pursued, I found this:

"Question from Visitor:

John,
Are Arminian doctrines and Synergist doctrines the same? If not, where do they differ?

All Arminians are synergists, but not all synergists are Arminian. Those who embrace synergism also include Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Methodists, Nazarenes, Molinists, Free Will Baptists, Libertarian Free Will Theists and some Dispensationalist Evangelicals.

We often use the term "synergist" because it is more accurate to describe a wider group. Synergism is related to the doctrine of regeneration or the new birth as described in John chapter 3. A Monergist is one who believes that God the Holy Spirit alone does the work of regeneration which opens blind eyes, unplugs deaf ears and turns the heart of stone to a heart of flesh. The synergist. on the other hand, believes that faith is produced by our UNREGENERATED human nature...that a natural man can exercise faith apart from the regeneration of the Holy Spirit (a position that all of the groups listed above share in common). The belief we are promoting here, that we believe is biblical, is that of monergism, that no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' apart from the Holy Spirit' ... that All that the Father gives to Christ will come to Him (John 6:37) and "no one comes to Christ unless the father grants it (John 6:63-65) ... So the Scripture in these passages is plainly saying, No one can believe the gospel unless God grants it and ALL to whom it is granted will believe -- making God's grace is both invincible and indelible. 2 Tim 2:25 also says it is God who grants repentance. It is not something that the natural man has the desire to do, for John 3:19 says the natural man "loves darkness and hates the light and will not come into the light." But those who come into the light show that it is a work wrought by God. We love God only because he first loved us. It is Paul who plants and Apollos who waters but God causes the growth. When we preach the gospel to people we can preach till we are blue in the face and no one will respond UNTIL Christ sets them free from their bondage to the corruption of nature. Left to themselves men will always reject Christ. It takes a special work of supernatural grace to remove the hostility of man. So we cast forth the seed of the Gospel in preaching but the Holy Spirit germinates the seed, so to speak, if that man would respond.

To further answer your question, it is not appropriate, imho, to label a Roman Catholic an Arminian. Why? Simply because he is not an Arminian and would never own that name. Nor would an Arminian appreciate being called Roman Catholic even though they may share some aspects of their doctrine of salvation in common. Arminians have very specific beliefs called the "Five Points of the Remonstrance" (a protest against Calvinism). This practice of calling anyone we disagree with an "Arminian" is not unlike if there were an Arminian who called all Calvinists "hypercalvinists". We would be quick to correct him and show the stark differences. If I were to call a Roman Catholic an Arminian it likewise would be inaccurate and both parties would be offended for not attempting to define their position accurately. They may hold synergism in common (a cooperation of man and God in regeneration) but they do not hold many other beliefs in common so the label becomes meaningless when we apply the term Arminian to anyone who does not agree with the five points of Calvinism. Some Calvinists have a tendency to do this but, I believe it is not helpful to any discussion.

If the average evangelical coming out of Dallas Seminary does not believe in monergistic regeneration I do not automatically call him an Arminian, because he would vehemently disagree with most Arminian doctrine. In fact he would be much closer to a Calvinist than an Arminian theologically since he believes in unconditional election and total depravity. He may be inconsistent in his theology and confused, but not Arminian. When we debate with other people it is better, imho, to describe other people in a way that they can agree with. If you paint them in colors they disagree with then we are creating a straw man. So over the years as I debate and discuss I find being precise is much more likely to persuade than to give a sweep of the hands and just labeling everyone an Arminian. Synergism more accurately describes the main difference we have with many other groups and is helpful to creating the desire on both sides for further discussion."

Source

But in doing so, I also admit that nearly 100% of all material on Synergism says they agree somewhat with Arminian Theology.

What, if any, is in disagreement with synergism:

"1. That God, from all eternity, hath decreed to elect to everlasting life, all those who, through His grace, believe in Jesus Christ, and in the same belief, and obedience of faith, persevere to the end. But the unconverted and unbelieving He had resolved to reject to everlasting damnation.

2. That in consequence of this decree, Christ the Saviour of the world, died for all and every man, so that by His death, He hath obtained reconciliation and pardon of sins for all men, nevertheless, in such a manner that none but the faithful really and effectually enjoy the benefits thereof.

3. That man could not [i.e., does not possess the capability to] obtain saving faith of himself, or by the strength of his own free will, but stood in need of God’s grace, through Christ, to be made the subject of its power.

4. Therefore this grace is the cause of the beginning, the progress, and the completion of man’s salvation, in so much that no one could believe, or persevere in faith, without this operating grace, and consequently, that all good works must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. Nevertheless, the manner of the operation of this grace was not irresistible.

5. That true believers had sufficient strength, through divine grace, to resist and overcome Satan, sin, the world, and their own lusts, but whether they might not, through their negligence, apostatize and lose the power of holy saving truth, the testimony of a well-directed conscience, and forfeit that grace, must first be more fully inquired into, under the guidance of the holy scriptures, before they could, with confidence and unhesitating minds, assert and teach it."

5 Points of The Remonstrants, 1610

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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