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John 1 and edpobre

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Future Man, Sep 26, 2002.

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  1. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Hello Edpobre and God bless you! :)

    Sorry about the wait....


    Whether I would have or not is besides the point. The fact of the matter is; the NT revealed it as being fact.
    I would not have known the implications of the "virgin birth" had it not been for the NT. Dito on
    'Wisdom'. Re-read those scriptures I provided for proof.

    Several points here I would like to bring up:
    The "insult" you speculate above would merely work only if Jesus were not God. Jesus himself states that He is amongst numerous other evidence. Jesus IS God and therefore there is no contradiction to God Almighty.
    Secondly you say:
    In FACT, Jesus (the other God?) does NOT even know the day or hour of his second coming.
    First point, Jesus is not "another god". That is to imply polytheism. Triunitarianism is monotheism.
    Secondly, the fact that Jesus "didn't know something" is of no problem. We would expect this in His earthly state..cf..Phil2:6. Note also that the Father apparently does'nt "know" everything.
    Read: Gen22:12 "....for now I know that you fear God."
    This is not to say that God is not omnipotent, but that whatever reason for the above could just as easily be applied to Christ. After all, Revelations seems to denote that Christ knows quite a bit concerning the "end times".

    You may have simply misunderstood me here.

    I do know that I am composed of "body, soul, and spirit"..cf..1Thess5:23. Dito on Christ. He merely took on ['ginomai'-ed] flesh i.e "man" upon himself..cf..Phil2:6. The eternal Spirit of God was already there..cf..Jn1.

    The "different" ways is referent to the "burning bush" etc...As I said- directly by His son.

    For "Only-begotton Son" you may want to see Gen22:2 (Only? who was Issac's brother at the time?)..cf..Ps89:27 (Messianic prophecy-Why "appoint" as first-born? David is referred to, but was born last)..cf..Acts13:33 (How was this fulfilled?).

    Note what is said: "Future sufferings". This only works if Trinitarians believed Him to have suffered eternity past.

    Note again 1Peter1:10-11. "Who's" Spirit resides in the prophets?..cf..Rom8:9.

    Quite the opposite. Read carefully:

    Zech14:3 "Then the LORD ['YHWH'] will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.."

    ..cf..

    Act 1:10 While they were looking steadfastly into the sky as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white clothing,
    Act 1:11 who also said, "You men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who was received up from you into the sky will come back in the same way as you saw him going into the sky."
    Act 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.

    The Jews didn't believe He was God, but that He claimed it.
    You seem to conclude that because Jesus was a "man" that He could not also be "God". This is like saying that Jesus could not be the "High Priest" because He was the sacrifice. Or that He could not be "King" because He was a servant. Or that He could not be the 'Son of God' because He was the 'Son of Man'.
    The bible says itself that Jesus was the "Word of Life"..cf..1Jn1:1-2..cf..Jn1:4. As a matter of fact read Jn5:26 where Jesus states that He has "life" within Himself..cf..Jn1:4.
    Note all the parallels:
    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (Genesis 1:26) and the Word was God (Jn20:28, etc…).”
    He was with God in the beginning (Prov8:30).”
    “Through him all things were made; (1Cor8:6) without him nothing was made that has been made (1Col1:16). In him was life, (Jn5:26, Jn5:39 etc…), and that life was the light of men (Jn3:36…I’ve given you many scriptures demonstrating Jesus as the “Light”). The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it (..cf..Jn3:19).
    “There came a man who was sent from God (Isaiah40:3 “highway for God”..cf..Mal3:1..cf..Jn20:28). He came as a witness to testify concerning that light (Jn5:31-33).., so that through him all men might believe. He himself [Baptist] was not that light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world (1Jn1:8-9).
    “He [Word] was in the world, and though the world was made-(note the “literalism” then the jump in the second half to an action of Jesus…)- through him, the world did not recognize him [Word]. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him (Jn19:15-16..). Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his [Word] NAME (Jn20:31), he gave the right to become children of God, children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God (Jn3:16).
    “The Word became flesh (1Tim3:16 “He [Jesus] appeared in a body..” Phil2:6) and made his [Word] dwelling among us. We have seen his [Word] glory, the glory of the One and Only.”
    Note the scriptural parallels within the NT. Note how the entire ministry of Jesus Christ is summed up in John's prolouge. You cannot divorce the creator from the savior from within the very context prior to vs14.

    In fact Jesus himself states this. Read:

    Jn8:12 “When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, ‘I AM the LIGHT of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”..cf..
    Jn11:25 “Jesus said to her, ‘I AM the resurrection and the LIFE….” ..cf..Jn1:4

    Jesus is that light and life; the Word. Remember that Jesus said that HE was the ‘manna’ that came down from heaven.
    Jn6:32 “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the TRUE bread FROM HEAVEN. For the bread of God is HE who comes DOWN FROM HEAVEN and gives LIFE to the world. ‘they said….from now on give us this bread.” Then Jesus declared, “I AM the BREAD of LIFE….”

    More on Jesus as the ‘Light’; the ‘Word’.

    Matthew 4:16 "...the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."..cf..[ 4:16 Isaiah 9:1,2]

    John 9:5 "While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

    John 12:35 "Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going...cf..Jn15:4-6.

    John 1:7 "He came as a witness to testify concerning that light [Jesus], so that through Him all men might believe."

    Notice how John was to testify of the light (Jesus) the light which is the world..cf..Jn1:10. Jesus is the word.

    It's not the "HE" I am concentrating on, but the "Name" of the 'Word' i.e. 'Jesus'. Note that this man that has the "name on which to believe" is the same that created the world and was IN it in vs10.

    That's not the parallel. I'm saying that Jesus did not exist as "Messiah" before He BECAME MESSIAH. He pre-existed as God yet was preordained to be the coming Messiah incarnated.

    God bless you Edpobre--FM
     
  2. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Future Man
    You are correct about the NT regarding Isaiah 7:14. because it was EXPLICITLY revealed as being so in Matthew 1:21-23. Is there a SIMILAR revelation in the NT regarding Prov. 8:22 which EXPLICITLY points to Jesus as the WISDOM referred to in Prov. 8:1 and 12?

    You say Jesus is God. Is he the God whose WISDOM it is that we are talking about? If Jesus is God and he is God's WISDOM, how many Gods are we talking about my friend?  

    You say Jesus is God, right? And you say Jesus (God) is God's WISDOM, right?  Whether you like it or NOT FutureMan, isn't Jesus ANOTHER God? Does merely SAYING that Triunitarianism is Monotheism CHANGE the FACT that Jesus is ANOTHER God? Let's face it FutureMan, God the SON is NOT one and the SAME as God the FATHER, right?

    Trinitrarians say that Jesus is BOTH God and MAN.  Now you say that "in his earthly state" he did NOT know something. Let me ask you FutureMan, is there a point in Jesus life on earth that he was NOT in his earthly state? Can you point that out to me BASED on scripture, NOT on your own speculation?

    Not at all! Read your post again and see for yoyrself what you wrote!

    Jesus did NOT claim he was God. That's what the Jews THOUGHT he did! Anyone who THINKS that Jesus CLAIMED he was God is THINKING like how the Jews. Jesus said "God was his Father" (John 5:18) and "I am the Son of God" (John 10:36).  When the Jews HEARD this, they THOUGHT that Jesus was making himself equal to God.

    What you say does NOT matter FutureMan. What Jesus SAYS does because he is our SAVIOR. My conclusion is based on what Jesus says. He said he is a MAN (John 8:40). This alone is NOT my basis. Jesus also said that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Now, this EXCLUDES him as God! The Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines "ONLY" as "ALONE in its class or kind."  Thus, there is NO reason for me gto BELIEVE that Jesus, the Son is ALSO God IN ADDITION to God, the FATHER.

    I have to admit that your reasoning is SOUND. However, it CONTRADICTS what Jesus himself TAUGHT about himself and about God. In FACT, the apostles themselves TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (1 Cor. 8:6) who is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3).

    Ed
     
  3. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Hello and God bless you :),

    Sorry I haven't been around for a while. Been duking it out on another forum concerning "sacrifice". I'll have a response up in a day or two.

    God bless--FM
     
  4. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Okay, sorry, that was a little more than a "day or two". I've been VERY busy ;) lately.

    Yes. 1Corinthians1:24 “…Christ, the power of God and the WISDOM of GOD

    He states this Himself here:


    Luke11:49 “Therefore the Wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute, that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundaton of the world may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the alter and the temple.”

    ..cf..

    Matt23:34 “Therefore indeed I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, ‘that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the alter.”


    You’re confusing my beliefs with ‘modalism’ where the Father and Son are the same ‘person’. I could more accurately say that Jesus is the ‘Wisdom of the Father’.

    Read this link here for a great article on Jesus as God’s ‘Wisdom’.

    You’re having the problem of ‘God is Jesus’ vs ‘Jesus is God’ Try this example (but don’t draw a direct parallel):

    Think of Adam and Eve. They were two persons constituting ONE flesh, no? Yes. Now read Zech14:9 “…..on that day there will be ONE YHWH, and His name the ONLY name.”

    *Note that it doesn't say 'one "god"' but 'ONE YHWH'.

    Note that after His resurrection Peter states; John21:11 “He said, ‘Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you…”

    Why would they “think” this? Why would the Jews so often misunderstand Him?

    What Jesus is doing is contrasting the ONLY true God with the many false “gods” in the surrounding pagan nations. This in no wise excludes him any more than the representative of a company is excluded from being a part of that corporation. Read Jude4 then 1Cor8:6. Note that the Father is delineated from the ONE Lord. Does this mean that Jesus is our ONLY Lord and the Father is NOT? No. It is just as it is with YHWH being our ‘ONLY Savior’. Does this exclude Jesus? Despite the fact that there is “no name under heaven given unto men by which we much be saved’? No. Dito on Jn17:3.

    No Trinitarian would have a problem with what you are saying. I agree that Jesus was made a man. And that he is also God. This is what Jn1:1-14 is all about. How else did Jesus ‘the Word’ “make the worlds..cf..Jn1vs10 and this very ‘Word’ from vs10 have a “NAME” i.e. ‘Jesus’on which to believe..cf..Jn1vs12??

    Edpobre, why would you NOT want Jesus to be God? Why not be free to open your heart to Him and be able to worship and love Him with ALL your heart and honor him JUST AS you do the Father? Jn5:18,23. See Rev5:13 to see ALL creation from which Jesus and the Father are delineated and note that ALL creation is giving BOTH the Father and the Son THE Honor THE glory and THE praise. They are giving EQUAL honor to Both the Father and the Son. No creature can claim this.

    God bless you in the highest, Edpobre--Jeremiah
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    This is true. Christ (the gospel of Christ) is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes (Romans 1:16) and he is the FULFILLMENT  of God's "logos" or WISDOM for the REDENPTION of the world.

     Jesus here is talking as the PERSONIFIED "logos" or WISDOM of God for the REDEMPTION of the world.

    [quoteYou say Jesus is God. Is he the God whose WISDOM it is that we are talking about? If Jesus is God and he is God's WISDOM, how many Gods are we talking about my friend? [/quote]

    You’re confusing my beliefs with ‘modalism’ where the Father and Son are the same ‘person’. I could more accurately say that Jesus is the ‘Wisdom of the Father’.

    [/quote]

    I'm NOT confusing your beliefs with 'modalism' where the Father abd the Son are the same 'person.'  In fact, I'm saying that you believe in TWO Gods - Jesus who is God's wisdom and God Himsel whose wisdom is Jesus.

    As I said, Jeus is the PERSONIFIED "logos" or wisdom of God  for the REDEMPTION of the world.

    You’re having the problem of ‘God is Jesus’ vs ‘Jesus is God’ Try this example (but don’t draw a direct parallel):

    Think of Adam and Eve. They were two persons constituting ONE flesh, no? Yes. Now read Zech14:9 “…..on that day there will be ONE YHWH, and His name the ONLY name.”

    *Note that it doesn't say 'one "god"' but 'ONE YHWH'.

    [/quote]

    You are the one having problems FutureMan. You say that Jesus is God and he (Jesus)  is God's (the Father) WISDOM. You don't want to say that Jesus and the Father are ONE and the SAME. Neither would you want to say that they are TWO separate and distinct Gods. What is it that you really believe in?

    Adam and Eve are two 'persons' or HUMAN beings (MAN). Man is FLESH (Gen. 6:3). Adam and Eve are ONE flesh.

    You refer to God the Father and God the Son (Jesus)  as two 'persons.'  But they cannot be ONE as Adam and Eve are ONE flesh because God the Father is SPIRIT (John 4:24) while God the Son (Jesus) is FLESH  and bones (Luke 24:39). There is NO way they can be ONE God! They have to be TWO Gods!

    Thus, your belief that Jesus is God is FALSE.

    Zech, 14:9 is about ONE Lord and the name of that ONE Lord is one (cf. Eph. 4:4-6).

    Note that after His resurrection Peter states; John21:11 “He said, ‘Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you…”

    [/quote]

    You are grabbing at straws FutureMan. This does NOT prove that Jesus was NOT in his earthly state. Read Luke 24:41-43 and SEE that Jesus ATE broiled fish AFTER God resurrected him.  Peter's statement does NOT alter what Jesus has said in Mark 13:32 - that he does NOT know the day and hiour of his coming. 

    Why would they “think” this? Why would the Jews so often misunderstand Him?

    [/quote]

    Because like Trinitarians who INSIST on making Jesus God, they were BENT on killing Jesus. That's why everything Jresus SAID was MISUNDERSTOOD by the Jews to mean that he was claiming to be God - hence, BLASPHEMY which was punishable by death. 

    What Jesus is doing is contrasting the ONLY true God with the many false “gods” in the surrounding pagan nations. This in no wise excludes him any more than the representative of a company is excluded from being a part of that corporation.

    [/quote]

    The ONLY true God is the Father. The Father is NOT a corporation. Jesus (the Son) is NOT part of the Father. Or do you believe that Jesus and the Father are one?

    Apostle Paul is CLEAR on this matter. God is our FATHER and Jesus Christ is our ONLY one LORD (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6; Jude 4 TEV). God put ALL things UNDER the feet of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:27). Thus, until judgment day when Jesus will subject himself to God  (1 Cor. 15:28), Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. FYI, God MADE Jesus Prince and SAVIOR (Acts 5:31).

    Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).  Your INTERPRETATION of John 1:1-14 is BIASED toward tthe DEITY of Jesus. Verse 10 does NOT say that Jesus MADE the world. It says the world was made THROUGH him. The WORD is God's "logos" or WISDOM for the REDEMPTION of the world. The FULFILLMENT of God's WISDOM is Jesus, the MAN.

    Jesus SAID that anyone who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18). If I say Jesus is God DESPITE his telling me that he is a MAN (John 8:40), that would mean I don't believe him and anything I do would be useless.

    Apostle John wrote that anyone who does NOT abide in the docrine of Christ does NOT have God (2 John 1:9). Jesus' doctrine about himself is - he is a MAN. If I don't abide in this doctrine, I would NOT have God. Would honoring him do any good for me? I don't think so!

    Ed 
     
  6. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Who is Jesus according to Iglesia ni Cristo

    Iglesia ni Cristo

    Non Iglesia ni Cristo Association
     
  7. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Then how do you know that Jesus is NOT being 'personified' as God's Wisdom in Proverbs8:22? Let's use your own reasoning against you. How can God, who IS Wisdom, be WITH that God? Pr8:30.
    Yes God is Spirit and Jesus has a spirit as well. Read:
    Luke23:46; 1Peter1:11; Romans8:9 etc...
    ..therefore their Spirit is ONE. Just because Jesus also possesses flesh at the incarnation does not mean that His 'Spirit' is not ONE with the Father.
    Genesis1:27-

    "So God created man in His own
    image, in the image of God created He him;
    male and female created He them.

    Genesis2:22-

    "And the rib [substance], which the LORD God had taken out of man,
    made He a woman, and brought her unto the man.
    And Adam said,

    'This is now bone OF MY bones,
    and flesh OF MY flesh:
    she shall be called woman,
    because she was taken out of Man.'

    Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother,
    and shall cleave unto his wife:
    and they shall be ONE flesh."

    ..cf..Zech14:9
    Yes, all Christians believe that Jesus is in the flesh NOW. But this DOES NOT exclude Him from ALSO being God. Secondly, I believe Revelations demonstrates that Christ knows quite a lot concerning the "last days".
    That's what we call Trunitarianism of course.
    So you believe that the Father is NOT our Lord? That's interesting. See Acts4:24. Is this the Father or the Son?
    1Cor15:27 is agreeable with the Trinitarian doctrine. Just like a wife is subordinated to her husband, so is Christ to His Father. Yet man and woman are still ONE "man", as Christ and Father are still ONE God. It's also interesting to note that in vs28 the Son is said to be "subjected" ONLY after all things are subdued. What is the relative position to the Father before 'subjection'? Equal. Otherwise there would be no "subjection".
    And for the Father "giving" to the Son. Nothing He didn't have at one time before- Jn17:5.
    My interpretation of Jn1:10 does not require Jesus to be "divine" at all, despite the fact that that is what I believe. Note the subject of vs10. It is Jesus. Vs 12 even gives us the name. In vs10 the 'kosmos' is said to be brought into existence 'through' Jesus. It means that Jesus is the intermediate agent of creation. Just like a hammer is in building a cabinet. The Father used the 'Word' to make the worlds by His power. Even the JWs can see this. And how does your interpretation make any sense? How is it that Jesus made 'ginomai' the world and the world THAT HE MADE 'knew him NOT'? Is this speaking of the "world to come"? No. The world to come is of believers, not those who rejected him.
    Think about this then read the following with an open mind:
    Jn6:62; Jn17:5; Col1:15; Rev1:17
    Yes, Jesus IS a man as all of us believe. But He is also God- Jn1. Think about it, ed. Surely you can see that Jn1 is speaking of Jesus in a pre-existent state. Accept it. I'm not your enemy.
    Come to the real Christ.
    God bless you--FM
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0


    Jesus CANNOT be WISDOM 'personified' in Proverbs 8:1 and Prov. 8:12 because Jesus was NOT yet born when this verse was written. In fact, the birth of Jesus was still a prophecy as recorded in Isaiah 7:14.

    Proverbs 8:1 and 12 is God's WISDOM or intellect in general. John 1:1 is God's "logos" or WISDOM concerning the REDEMPTION of he world. Jesus is the 'personification' of God's "logos" or WISDOM concerning the REDEMPTION of the world.

    Of course Jesus HAS a spirit just as you and I have SPIRIT too. And God who is a SPIRIT (John 4:24) has also a spirit (in fact 7) that he sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6).

    When we talk of God being a SPIRIT, we are talking about His state of being (INVISIBLE) in CONTRAST to Jesus being FLESH and bones in state of being (VISIBLE). Thus, God is SPIRIT (John 4:24) while man is FLESH and bones (Gen. 6:3; Luke 24:39).

    When we talk of God's SPIRIT being ONE with Jesus' SPIRIT, we are talking about their "special attitude or frame of mind." 

    When we talk of BOTH of us having a SPIRIT, we are talking of the breath of life that God gives us and the "immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person" that is present in both of us.

    First of all, it was NOT Jesus who SAID John 1:1.  And John did NOT categorically state that the word is Jesus BEFORE Jesus WAS born.

    Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

    Apostle John wrote ALL these verses. I don't believe apostle John would write CONTRADICTING accounts.  I CANNOT therefore INTERPRET what apostle John wrote in John 1:1 to mean that Jesus is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the Father.

    Second of all, BELIEVING a doctrine that is CONTRARY to what Jesus TAUGHT (he is a MAN and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God) LEADS to the 'lake of fire' - NOT eternal life.

    What kind of person would lead a friend to eternal damnation?

    Ed
     
  9. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    MATTHEW 7:14
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    MATTHEW 7:15
    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


    MATTHEW 24:11
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


    II PETER 2:1
    1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    II PETER 2:2
    2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

    II PETER 2:3
    3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
     
  10. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    What does, "IN THE BEGINNING", mean? Does it mean, "in the beginning of the-time-of-Jesus"? Or does it mean, "in the beginning"?

    Did Jesus have a beginning? Not according to Heb7:3---"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither BEGINNING OF DAYS NOR END OF LIFE, but made like the Son of God..." How can this be disputed?

    ("aphomoioo"---facsimile, to-be-made-like...)
     
  11. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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  12. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    MATTHEW 24:4
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    MATTHEW 24:5
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.






    Examine Iglesia ni Cristi

    http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

    http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

    http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

    http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

    http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

    http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

    http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    "My dear friends,

    do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.

    This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the Spirit who comes from God. But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus does NOT have the Spirit of God. The spirit that he has is the ENEMY of Christ; you heard that it would come, and now it is here in the world already" (1 John 4:1-3 Today's English Version).

    Trinitarians DENY that Jesus Christ CAME as a  HUMAN being. They TEACH that Jesus Christ CAME as God who BECAME a MAN.

    Do Trinitarians have the Spirit of God? The Bible says NO! Those who PERSECUTE the Iglesia Ni Cristo are TRINITARIANS. Should you believe them? The Bible says NO!

    Ed



     
     
  14. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Alpha and Omega


    The Trinity: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit


    Is the Creedal Doctrine of Trinity Biblical


    A brief declaration and vindication of the Trinity


    The following links provide information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, it's founder, their doctrine, who they state Jesus is?, what Salvation is according to their man-made doctrinal beliefs, the control they adminster to it's members, their deceptive practices, and the claims of the founder, Felix Manalo and his belief that he is spoken of in scripture as a messenger of God/The 5th angel.

    There is a considerable amount of data that has been gathered on Iglesia ni Cristo, much of it from their own publications and former members.

    I believe it is well worth the time reading over the information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, indeed.


    Examine Iglesia ni Cristi

    http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

    http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

    http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

    http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

    http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

    http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

    http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml
     
  15. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    Hello Edpobre, and God bless you.

    Rather, Jesus was not "..made flesh" (vs14) until the fulfillment of Isaiah7:14.

    Ed, I've already gone over SOME of the scriptures demonstrating Jesus as God's Wisdom, Word, etc... You must account for the following passage:

    Jn1:10 "He [Jesus] was IN the world, and the world was MADE BY Him, and the world knew him not."
    Rather, you will note that both the Wisdom in Prov8 and the Logos in Jn1 are both involved in the process of creation. Read:

    Pro 8:30 Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight--day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times,

    ..cf..

    Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

    Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

    ..cf..

    Jn1:10 "He was IN the world, and the world was MADE BY HIM [Jesus], and the world knew Him not."

    The parallel is clear.

    Read:

    Joh 6:62 Then what if you see the Son of Man going up where He was at first?

    Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the existence of the world.

    Read:

    Heb 1:2 ".. in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;.."

    ..cf..

    Heb 11:3 By faith we understand the ages to have been framed by the Word of God, so that the things seen should not come into being out of things that appear.

    It is said that the ages/worlds were brought INTO existence through the Son.

    You are correct. See also:

    1Th 5:23 And may the God of peace Himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    This is saying that God cannot manifest Himself as flesh, which is precisely what Jesus Christ has done. Had not YHWH manifested himself as a pillar of fire in the OT? A cloud? etc...?

    And yet you say that God cannot tabernacle in the flesh as He did in the tent of meeting in the OT.

    I don't necessarily disagree, but it's not on topic.

    ..or in other words, the spirit. I ask again what is actively doing the prophecying in 1Peter1:11

    1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was IN them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    1Jo 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;.."

    Easily inferred reference to Jn1. See also Rev19:13.

    As for John not saying that the word IS Jesus. See again vs12 (who's name?) with vs10:

    "He was in the world, and the world was made by Him and the world knew Him not".

    Note that it was the world that He was IN that was made by Him. This is not the "new world" as it "knew Him not".

    Jesus is ALSO God. He was manifest in the flesh.

    See also "ONLY Savior" as pertaining to the Father. Does this exclude Jesus Christ?

    Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
    How about Jude4? Does this exclude the Father as our Lord? By your reasoning it does. But let's read:

    Jud 1:4 For certain men have got in unnoticed, they who of old were marked out beforehand to this sentence, ungodly persons , turning the grace of our God into dissoluteness, and denying our ONLY Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

    Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said,Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:..cf..Jn1:10 etc..

    But as I have demonstrated, Jn17:3 does not exclude Jesus as God. It merely contrasts the one genuine God from amongst the surrounding 'pagain deities', and to demonstrate what Jesus was sent to earth to do.

    I simply cannot go by your methods or else I am forced to say that the Father is NOT my 'Lord'. And scripture testifys against that.

    But when the scriptures explicitely state that Jesus was the agent of creation, then you know you are mistaken:
    Jn1,10,12; Jn17:5; Col1:16; Heb1:2..cf..Heb11:3 etc..etc..etc..

    They wouldn't!! That is precisely why I am trying to correct your understanding. I AM your friend. Unless you account for the scriptures I am providing, you cannot say that I am wrong.

    Every cult, sect, and religion has a problem with the Triune God.
    Muslims do. Jehovah's Witnesses do. Christadelphians do. Mormons do. SDAs do. Everybody! Why do all these religions have similar beliefs, yet all fight so hard against the Trinity? (-satan).

    How often do you see a JW arguing against a CD? :scratch:

    God bless you Ed--FM
     
  16. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    When God manifested Himself as a pillar of fire, He was himself, the pillar of fire. The Israelites did NOT pray to any OTHER God while the pillar of fire was leading them. The ONENESS of the ONLY God was PRESERVED.

    If Jesus Christ were this SAME God who manifested himself as MAN, and this MAN prayed to ANOTHER God in heaven whom this MAN called Father, then it would appear that there were TWO Gods BEFORE Jesus Christ, the God TURNED himself into Jesus Christ, the MAN.

     I still believe that what Jesus SAID about himself (he is a MAN) and about God (the Father alone is God) is TRUE and NOTHING can CHANGE that!

    Whose word is it that GIVES life FM, yours or Jesus? Jesus says the Father is the ONLY - repeat, ONLY true God. YOU say Jesus, the SON, is ALSO God. I cast my lot with Jesus anytime my friend.

    Jesus CANNOT be God who manifested himself in the flesh. The Bible teaches that there is ONLY ONE God.  Jesus could NOT have been the ONLY ONE God who manifested huimself in the flesh.

    God the Father is the ONLY SAVIOR for the Israelites, His ancient nation. God MADE Jesus savior from His wrath (Acts 5:31).

    God GAVE Jesus a NAME by which men may be saved (Phil. 2:9).

    God the Father is NOT my "Lord." He is my FATHER. And I am His SON. Apostle Paul wrote that for CHILDREN of God, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father and ONLY ONE Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6). 

    These apostles were Israelites. Thus, they were TAUGHT from childhood to address God as "Lord." This was only a force of habit.

    Regardles of what you THINK Jesus' reason was John 17:3 definitely EXCLUDES Jesus as the ONE genuine God. If the Father is the ONE genuine God, then Jesus would be COUNTED amongst the surrounding 'pagan deities' especially since Jesus has said that he is a MAN (John 8:40).

    Apostle Paul wrote that those who are NOT "IN Christ" were CONSIDERED Gentiles and APART from Christ, WITHOUT hope and WITHOUT God in the world (Eph. 2:12).

    ONLY the Israelite nation of God was COMMANDED to CALL Him "Lord." But about 700 years BEFORE the birth of Christ, Isarel BECAME God's ENEMY because of SIN, particularly, IDOLATRY.  Hence, EVERYONE became a Gentile in God's eyes "hgaving NO hope and WITHOUT God in the world."  

    But when one BECOMES a member inidividually of the BODY of Christ (Rom. 12:4-5), one is REDEMED through Christ's blood and recieves FORGIVENESS of sins (Col. 1:13-14), one BECOMES a son of God. God then SENDS forth the spirit of His son into one's heart crying "Abba, Father" (Gal. 4:4-6).

    Jesus TAUGHT his disciples to pray to the FATHER (Matt. 6:9) - not to the "Lord God." He prayed to God calling Him "Father" (John 17:1) - NOT "Lord."

    I don't understand your question. At any rate, I have no problem with the "Triune" God.  I understand the doctrine and KNOW that it is FALSE because it CONTRADICTS what the Bible teaches.  Thus, according to the Bible, Trinitarians do NOT have God!

    There are OTHER beliefs that are CONTRARY to what the Bible teaches and you find these in all the religions or churches you mentioned.

    BTW, the SDAs believe the Trinity doctrine but they prefer to call it Triunity doctrine to separate them (???) from the rest. The JWs also believe that Jesus is God but NOT as Almighty as the Father. The Mormons believe that Jesus is a MAN that BECAME God and believe that ALL men can be God someday.

    Ed
     
  17. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    I'm curious, Ed---there was a time before you believed in God. I'm wondering how you came to your belief---specifically, why there is such a tenacity to cling to it, when you have been offered such evidence for Christ's "ONENESS WITH GOD"? You contend that the MELCHIZEDEK mentioned in Heb7:3 is not the "JESUS-MELCHIZEDEK" mentioned 3 verses earlier in 6:20---but you fail to explain who it IS, who has no beginning! You ignore the prophecy in Isaiah 9, about "a child will be born unto you, and will be called ALMIGHTY GOD"...

    Why the commitment to hold to your belief in spite of what you have been shown? Just curious...

    May I leave you with a parting verse today?

    "For this cause the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself EQUAL WITH GOD..." Jn5:18

    :)
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Anyone who BELIEVES Jesus shall NOT perish but shall have everlasting life (John 3:16). To attain eternal life is my ONLY reason for joining a particular religion. That's the reason why I BELIEVE Jesus and tenaciously cling to what he TEACHES: that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).



    Either you ae NOT reading my post or you do NOT understand what I post. Hebrew 7:3 of the Today's English Version CLEARLY points to MELCHIZEDEK as the one referred to as without any record of his birth and his death.

    Hebrew 6:20 Ibid. talks about Jesus who has BECOME a high priest forever in the order of Melchizedek, meaning, he comes AFTER or FOLLOWS Melchizedek as high priest forever.

    I ignore the second part of Isaiah 9:6 because I believe it is a MISTRANSLATION.

    Firstly, I don't believe that the Almighty God and everlasting Father BECAME a helpless child who knew NOTHING. Secondly, if the SON who was given to us is the Almighty God and everlasting Father: 1) WHO was it who GAVE us the Son; and 2)  what do we call HIM who GAVE the son to us? 

    This MISTRANSLATED version of Isaiah 9:6 is an ABSURDITY.

    Because I believe what Jesus SAYS, not what YOU nor anyone else SAYS. 

    WHO said Jesus was making himself equal with God?  And HOW did they think Jesus make himself equal with God? The Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal with God simply because Jesus said God was his Father.

    The Jews like many people today, FALSELY accused Jesus because Jesus did NOT claim equality with God when he SAID God was his Father.

    Ed
     
  19. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    So who is "Melchizedek"?
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    This Melchizedek was king of Salem and a priest of the Most High God (Hebrews 7:1). Jesus BECAME priest by the means of a vow when God said to him:  "The Lord has made a solemn promise and will not take it back; you will be priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek" (Hebrews 5:6; 7:21).

    The matter becomes even plainer; a DIFFERENT priest has appeared, who is LIKE Melchizedek. He was made a priest, not by human rules and regulations, but through the power of a life that has no end (Hebrews 7:15-16).

    Ed

     

     

     
     
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