Hello Edpobre and God bless you!
Sorry about the wait....
Whether I would have or not is besides the point. The fact of the matter is; the NT revealed it as being fact.
I would not have known the implications of the "virgin birth" had it not been for the NT. Dito on
'Wisdom'. Re-read those scriptures I provided for proof.
Several points here I would like to bring up:
The "insult" you speculate above would merely work only if Jesus were not God. Jesus himself states that He is amongst numerous other evidence. Jesus IS God and therefore there is no contradiction to God Almighty.
Secondly you say:
In FACT, Jesus (the other God?) does NOT even know the day or hour of his second coming.
First point, Jesus is not "another god". That is to imply polytheism. Triunitarianism is monotheism.
Secondly, the fact that Jesus "didn't know something" is of no problem. We would expect this in His earthly state..cf..Phil2:6. Note also that the Father apparently does'nt "know" everything.
Read: Gen22:12 "....for now I know that you fear God."
This is not to say that God is not omnipotent, but that whatever reason for the above could just as easily be applied to Christ. After all, Revelations seems to denote that Christ knows quite a bit concerning the "end times".
You may have simply misunderstood me here.
I do know that I am composed of "body, soul, and spirit"..cf..1Thess5:23. Dito on Christ. He merely took on ['ginomai'-ed] flesh i.e "man" upon himself..cf..Phil2:6. The eternal Spirit of God was already there..cf..Jn1.
The "different" ways is referent to the "burning bush" etc...As I said- directly by His son.
For "Only-begotton Son" you may want to see Gen22:2 (Only? who was Issac's brother at the time?)..cf..Ps89:27 (Messianic prophecy-Why "appoint" as first-born? David is referred to, but was born last)..cf..Acts13:33 (How was this fulfilled?).
Note what is said: "Future sufferings". This only works if Trinitarians believed Him to have suffered eternity past.
Note again 1Peter1:10-11. "Who's" Spirit resides in the prophets?..cf..Rom8:9.
Zech14:3 "Then the LORD ['YHWH'] will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.."
..cf..
Act 1:10 While they were looking steadfastly into the sky as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white clothing,
Act 1:11 who also said, "You men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who was received up from you into the sky will come back in the same way as you saw him going into the sky."
Act 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.
The bible says itself that Jesus was the "Word of Life"..cf..1Jn1:1-2..cf..Jn1:4. As a matter of fact read Jn5:26 where Jesus states that He has "life" within Himself..cf..Jn1:4.
Note all the parallels:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (Genesis 1:26) and the Word was God (Jn20:28, etc ).
He was with God in the beginning (Prov8:30).
Through him all things were made; (1Cor8:6) without him nothing was made that has been made (1Col1:16). In him was life, (Jn5:26, Jn5:39 etc ), and that life was the light of men (Jn3:36 Ive given you many scriptures demonstrating Jesus as the Light). The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it (..cf..Jn3:19).
There came a man who was sent from God (Isaiah40:3 highway for God..cf..Mal3:1..cf..Jn20:28). He came as a witness to testify concerning that light (Jn5:31-33).., so that through him all men might believe. He himself [Baptist] was not that light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world (1Jn1:8-9).
He [Word] was in the world, and though the world was made-(note the literalism then the jump in the second half to an action of Jesus )- through him, the world did not recognize him [Word]. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him (Jn19:15-16..). Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his [Word] NAME (Jn20:31), he gave the right to become children of God, children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God (Jn3:16).
The Word became flesh (1Tim3:16 He [Jesus] appeared in a body.. Phil2:6) and made his [Word] dwelling among us. We have seen his [Word] glory, the glory of the One and Only.
Note the scriptural parallels within the NT. Note how the entire ministry of Jesus Christ is summed up in John's prolouge. You cannot divorce the creator from the savior from within the very context prior to vs14.
In fact Jesus himself states this. Read:
Jn8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, I AM the LIGHT of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life...cf..
Jn11:25 Jesus said to her, I AM the resurrection and the LIFE . ..cf..Jn1:4
Jesus is that light and life; the Word. Remember that Jesus said that HE was the manna that came down from heaven.
Jn6:32 I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the TRUE bread FROM HEAVEN. For the bread of God is HE who comes DOWN FROM HEAVEN and gives LIFE to the world. they said .from now on give us this bread. Then Jesus declared, I AM the BREAD of LIFE .
More on Jesus as the Light; the Word.
Matthew 4:16 "...the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."..cf..[ 4:16 Isaiah 9:1,2]
John 9:5 "While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
John 12:35 "Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going...cf..Jn15:4-6.
John 1:7 "He came as a witness to testify concerning that light [Jesus], so that through Him all men might believe."
Notice how John was to testify of the light (Jesus) the light which is the world..cf..Jn1:10. Jesus is the word.
It's not the "HE" I am concentrating on, but the "Name" of the 'Word' i.e. 'Jesus'. Note that this man that has the "name on which to believe" is the same that created the world and was IN it in vs10.
That's not the parallel. I'm saying that Jesus did not exist as "Messiah" before He BECAME MESSIAH. He pre-existed as God yet was preordained to be the coming Messiah incarnated.
God bless you Edpobre--FM
Sorry about the wait....
If I were a Jew who lived 100 years before Christ was born I would never have known that Isaiah7:14 (i.e. the Virgin Birth) was referent to Jesus had it not been for the revelation of the New Testament. Why? Because the prophecy was originally fulfilled in 2Kings. Also note vs16. How does this apply to Christ? Therefore we see that although this prophecy was not originally fulfilled in Christ, it foreshadowed of the coming Messiah. However, I would have had no idea otherwise had it not been for the NT reveling this to me.
Similarly, you would NOT have thought that Prov. 8:22 was referring to ANYONE other than God's WISDOM.
Whether I would have or not is besides the point. The fact of the matter is; the NT revealed it as being fact.
I would not have known the implications of the "virgin birth" had it not been for the NT. Dito on
'Wisdom'. Re-read those scriptures I provided for proof.
quote:
As for Christ as Gods Wisdom.
Christ was NEVER God's WISDOM. The belief that Jesus WAS God's WISDOM implies that God HAD to DEPEND on another God/person for WISDOM.This is a BLATANT attempt to LIMIT God in a BOX. This is an INSULT to God!
God is ALL-KNOWING, is He not? . He did NOT need anyone else (another God/person) to PLAN and IMPLEMENT the creation, government and redemption of the world. In FACT, Jesus (the other God?) does NOT even know the day or hour of his second coming. How can Jesus be God's WISDOM????
Several points here I would like to bring up:
The "insult" you speculate above would merely work only if Jesus were not God. Jesus himself states that He is amongst numerous other evidence. Jesus IS God and therefore there is no contradiction to God Almighty.
Secondly you say:
In FACT, Jesus (the other God?) does NOT even know the day or hour of his second coming.
First point, Jesus is not "another god". That is to imply polytheism. Triunitarianism is monotheism.
Secondly, the fact that Jesus "didn't know something" is of no problem. We would expect this in His earthly state..cf..Phil2:6. Note also that the Father apparently does'nt "know" everything.
Read: Gen22:12 "....for now I know that you fear God."
This is not to say that God is not omnipotent, but that whatever reason for the above could just as easily be applied to Christ. After all, Revelations seems to denote that Christ knows quite a bit concerning the "end times".
Your statement does NOT in any way demonstrate that Jesus is God and MAN. BTW, God is NOT a nature and MAN is not a nature either. Jesus is a MAN - NOT A "human nature". Are you a "human nature" my friend?
You may have simply misunderstood me here.
I do know that I am composed of "body, soul, and spirit"..cf..1Thess5:23. Dito on Christ. He merely took on ['ginomai'-ed] flesh i.e "man" upon himself..cf..Phil2:6. The eternal Spirit of God was already there..cf..Jn1.
Regarding Heb1:1-2. I see no way how this excludes Christ from pre-existence. God spoke indirectly before through the prophets, yet in the last days directly through God the Son
The verse says "God, who at various times and in DIFFERENT ways...has in these last days SPOKEN to us BY His Son..." The MANNER by which God SPOKE to our fathers BY the prophets does NOT provide evidence that Jesus pre-existed.
The "different" ways is referent to the "burning bush" etc...As I said- directly by His son.
For "Only-begotton Son" you may want to see Gen22:2 (Only? who was Issac's brother at the time?)..cf..Ps89:27 (Messianic prophecy-Why "appoint" as first-born? David is referred to, but was born last)..cf..Acts13:33 (How was this fulfilled?).
In FACT, 1 Peter 1:10-11 speaks of the prophets POINTING to the FUTURE sufferings of Christ. This PROVES that Christ was NOT yet in existence.
Note what is said: "Future sufferings". This only works if Trinitarians believed Him to have suffered eternity past.
Note again 1Peter1:10-11. "Who's" Spirit resides in the prophets?..cf..Rom8:9.
Quite the opposite. Read carefully:Acts 1:11-12 does NOT even have any connection whatsoever with Zech. 14:4.
Zech14:3 "Then the LORD ['YHWH'] will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.."
..cf..
Act 1:10 While they were looking steadfastly into the sky as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white clothing,
Act 1:11 who also said, "You men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who was received up from you into the sky will come back in the same way as you saw him going into the sky."
Act 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.
The Jews didn't believe He was God, but that He claimed it.If the Jews thought that Jesus were God, why would they be enraged at him? The Jews enraged with whom thery believed to be God? Thaat's a JOKE!
You seem to conclude that because Jesus was a "man" that He could not also be "God". This is like saying that Jesus could not be the "High Priest" because He was the sacrifice. Or that He could not be "King" because He was a servant. Or that He could not be the 'Son of God' because He was the 'Son of Man'.The Bible does NOT tell us that John was referring to Jesus as the WORD in Joh 1:1. You are the one telling us that! Jesus TAUGHT them that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Apostle John could NOT have been too DUMB to INSIST that Jesus is God.
The bible says itself that Jesus was the "Word of Life"..cf..1Jn1:1-2..cf..Jn1:4. As a matter of fact read Jn5:26 where Jesus states that He has "life" within Himself..cf..Jn1:4.
Note all the parallels:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (Genesis 1:26) and the Word was God (Jn20:28, etc ).
He was with God in the beginning (Prov8:30).
Through him all things were made; (1Cor8:6) without him nothing was made that has been made (1Col1:16). In him was life, (Jn5:26, Jn5:39 etc ), and that life was the light of men (Jn3:36 Ive given you many scriptures demonstrating Jesus as the Light). The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it (..cf..Jn3:19).
There came a man who was sent from God (Isaiah40:3 highway for God..cf..Mal3:1..cf..Jn20:28). He came as a witness to testify concerning that light (Jn5:31-33).., so that through him all men might believe. He himself [Baptist] was not that light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world (1Jn1:8-9).
He [Word] was in the world, and though the world was made-(note the literalism then the jump in the second half to an action of Jesus )- through him, the world did not recognize him [Word]. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him (Jn19:15-16..). Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his [Word] NAME (Jn20:31), he gave the right to become children of God, children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God (Jn3:16).
The Word became flesh (1Tim3:16 He [Jesus] appeared in a body.. Phil2:6) and made his [Word] dwelling among us. We have seen his [Word] glory, the glory of the One and Only.
Note the scriptural parallels within the NT. Note how the entire ministry of Jesus Christ is summed up in John's prolouge. You cannot divorce the creator from the savior from within the very context prior to vs14.
In fact Jesus himself states this. Read:
Jn8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, I AM the LIGHT of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life...cf..
Jn11:25 Jesus said to her, I AM the resurrection and the LIFE . ..cf..Jn1:4
Jesus is that light and life; the Word. Remember that Jesus said that HE was the manna that came down from heaven.
Jn6:32 I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the TRUE bread FROM HEAVEN. For the bread of God is HE who comes DOWN FROM HEAVEN and gives LIFE to the world. they said .from now on give us this bread. Then Jesus declared, I AM the BREAD of LIFE .
More on Jesus as the Light; the Word.
Matthew 4:16 "...the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."..cf..[ 4:16 Isaiah 9:1,2]
John 9:5 "While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
John 12:35 "Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going...cf..Jn15:4-6.
John 1:7 "He came as a witness to testify concerning that light [Jesus], so that through Him all men might believe."
Notice how John was to testify of the light (Jesus) the light which is the world..cf..Jn1:10. Jesus is the word.
vs10 He was IN the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. vs11 He came unto His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him , to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His NAME: ...cf..Jn20:31 How can the Word have a name on which to believe?
Are you sure John was referring to the WORD as a "HE" or to the MAN that the WORD turned INTO?
It's not the "HE" I am concentrating on, but the "Name" of the 'Word' i.e. 'Jesus'. Note that this man that has the "name on which to believe" is the same that created the world and was IN it in vs10.
I do not see how pre-ordaining someone excludes them from existence prior. A prince, for example, is ordained to be King. Yet he exists prior to becoming a King.
Sure, but the Prince did NOT pre-exist as KING before he BECAME a KING.
Similarly, Jesus "pre-existed" in the MIND or PLAN of God (as part of God's PLAN) BEFORE he BECAME a human being.
That's not the parallel. I'm saying that Jesus did not exist as "Messiah" before He BECAME MESSIAH. He pre-existed as God yet was preordained to be the coming Messiah incarnated.
God bless you Edpobre--FM
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