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John 1 and edpobre

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Future Man, Sep 26, 2002.

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  1. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Calvinist
    Hello edpobre and God bless,

    You mentioned on an earlier thread:

    Sadly I was caught up in another forum and had forsaken this one. However, if you would like to discuss this issue here, we may do so. :)

    God bless you--FM
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    It would be easier if you would post one objection at a time, and we go from there in detail.

    -FM-
     
  3. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    John 1:1
    In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    1:2
    He was already with God in the beginning.
    1:3
    Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.
    1:4
    He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.
    1:5
    The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it.
    1:6
    God sent a man named John to be his messenger.
    1:7
    John came to declare the truth about the light so that everyone would become believers through his message.
    1:8
    John was not the light, but he came to declare the truth about the light.
    1:9
    The real light, which shines on everyone, was coming into the world.
    1:10
    He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him. Yet, the world didn't recognize him.
    1:11
    He went to his own people, and his own people didn't accept him.
    1:12
    However, he gave the right to become God's children to everyone who believed in him.
    1:13
    These people didn't become God's children in a physical way--from a human impulse or from a husband's desire [to have a child]. They were born from God.
    1:14
    The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.






    No one has seen the actual spiritual being (existence, substance) of God. They saw God in a human body--this man Jesus.
     
  4. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by lambslove
    Lambslove,

    What you are saying then is Jesus is a MAN - not God, right? Otherwise, if you say that Jesus is God, then apostle John would have been LYING when he said that NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time.

    Ed
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Future Man
    Future Man,

    I'm glad you remembered. I surely appreciate that!

    Okay, let's start with Jesus being the WORD of God. As I posted earlier, please show scripture to prove that Jesus was the WORD of God that BECAME flesh or MAN whom Mary, his mother named Jesus.

    If you were a Jew who lived 100 years BEFORE Christ was born and you were reading Gen. 3:15, Gen. 17:7, Deut. 18:18 and Isaiah 7:14, would you have THOUGHT that the SEED, PROPHET, SON referrred to in these verses is GOD that would one day be called the WORD of God and BECOME a MAN? 

    If you are wondering whether the Old Testament was already existing by that time, the answer is yes. Jesus even read the prophecy regarding himself and his mission in the book of Isaiah.

    Ed
     
  6. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    2 John 1:7, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

    Lambs, What they saw in the man Christ Jesus were the characteristics of God but not God.  They saw the Son of God. I think this is where trinitarians have this false concept of the relationship between God and the Son. Nowhere does the scriptures say that Jesus is God in a human body!  Do you see where it says that in this 2 Jn? Do you see that in any passage of scripture ?  Those are the worldly, carnel inventions of men and their speculations and concept of who they want Jesus to be.  It certainly isn't the Christ of the bible!  It's not the Christ, the Son of the living God that Peter proclaimed!  Did Peter say to Jesus, thou art God ?  The main point is that there were many deceivers even in John's day who denied that Christ had really and truly "come in the flesh", denied that he was truly a man, denied that he truly "increased in wisdom", truly had been born a helpless babe, he was truly a man fighting against temptation yet commited no sin, lived in total submission to the will of His father (God) in heaven.  If we make Christ an all-powerful, all-knowing, untemptable co-equal part of the Supreme God, we deny that he has come "in the flesh" (a man) and we are manifested as anti-Christ's.
     
  7. BigEd

    BigEd an adopted child of God

    +3
    Christian
    Married
    this thread is not apologetics. it is a defense of the gnostic heresy and is being moved to spirituality.

    Thanks,
    Ed
     
  8. JLovesUSo

    JLovesUSo Member

    152
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    Christian
    Some of my favorite passages:




     
  9. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
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    Calvinist
    Hello edpobre and God bless you,

    I have my "full" argument written as a result of a debate with a few 'christadelphians' awhile back. However I hate to "spam" people with a huge argument, so I decided to take it bit by bit. :)

    • Jn1:1 "....in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God..(cf..Prov8:22)"

      ..cf..
    • Jn1:14 "...and the Word became ['ginomai'] flesh..."

      -Note the word 'ginomai' <1096> which means "made" or "to become". See here for details.
    Some examples of this are:

    -Matt4:3 "And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these [1a]stones be made <1096> [1b]bread."

    -and-

    -Matt5:45 "That [1a]ye may be <1096> the [1b]children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

    ..etc..

    Therefore we see that it is entirely possible for Jesus to have pre-existed in the divine state and yet submit himself to "become" i.e. 'ginomai' flesh..that is..man.-

    _______________________________________________________

    ..cont..

    ..cf..
    • 1Jn1:1-2 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life (cf..Jn1:4..cf..Luke24:39)."

      ..cf..
    • Revelations 19:13 "And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called 'The Word of God'."

    Just as much that I can come to the conclusion He is YHWH from reading Zech14:4..cf..Acts1:11-12.

    God bless you in the highest--FM ><>
     
  10. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Actually, I would have to disagree here or else we have a sore contradiction. Read:


    Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
    Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
    Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
    Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    **

    Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    **

    Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
    Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
    _________

    If anything, no one has seen the God's face. However, I don't believe seeing Jesus in His pure fleshly state constitutes "seeing God". You may want to note the difference between His earthly ministry and Rev1:17 where John "fell as dead at His feet". Why did he not die? See vs18 "..keys to death". See also Gen32:33..note "spared" and Judges13:22. Note that the messenger's name in vs18 is "Wonderful" which is the name given unto Jesus in Is9:6 :idea: See here for details. This also provides good evidence for our Lord's pre-existence.

    God bless--FM

    btw, Franklin, do you believe in the pre-ex of Christ?
     
  11. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    I just wanted everyone to know that I am not specifically arguing for the deity of the 'Word' as of yet, but Christ's pre-existence as the 'Word'. The deity will come after that is establised. Thank you. :pray:

    God bless--FM
     
  12. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Future Man


    • Proverbs 8:22 does NOT prove that Jesus was the WORD of God that BECAME man.&nbsp;Please go back to Proverbs 8:1 and 12 and you will see that it is WISDOM talking. If I were a Jew who lived 100 years before Christ was born, I would NOT have&nbsp;THOUGHT &nbsp;that this verse REFERS to the woman's SEED promised to the serpent (Gen. 3:15); to the SEED of Abraham (Gen. 17:7);&nbsp;to the PROPHET promised to Moses (Deut. 18:18) and to the SON prophesied in Isaiah 7:14.

      Your statement ("entirely possible") REFLECTS your DOUBT that Jesus was the WORD of God that BECAME a man.

      There is NO question that Jesus BECAME the WORD of God AFTER he was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 tells us that in these last days, God SPOKE to us by His son, Jesus. Jesus&nbsp;tells us that everything he says is a COMMAND from God, what to say and what to speak.

      But these verses do NOT prove that Jesus WAS the WORD that was with God&nbsp; and BECAME a man.

      Reading Zech. 14:4, I would conclude that the verse refers to God - NOT to a MAN. The Jews KNEW that "Lord" referred to God and the context of the verse speaks of God.&nbsp; Besisdes I would not have had the New Testament to cross-reference it with.

      And that's probably one of the reasons why the Jews did NOT believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They were expecting God to come and rescue them.

      Ed
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Future Man
    The Bible tells us that in these last days, God SPOKE to us through His Son (Heb. 1:1-2). In Matt. 17:5, God COMMANDS us to LISTEN to His Son. Apostles John and Paul LEARNED everything they wrote from Jesus.

    Apostle John wrote that NO ONE has SEEN God at ANY time John 1:18). Apostle Paul wrote that God is INVISIBLE (1 Tim. 1:17; 5:16). Thus, whatever&nbsp;MISCONCEPTIONS about God which the ancient Jews had as recorded in the Old Testament, had been CORRECTED by Jesus' teachings as recorded in the New Testament.

    Ed


    &nbsp;
     
  14. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Future Man
    There is NO Biblical proof that Jesus WAS the WORD of God that BECAME a MAN. Thus, I don't beliueve that Christ PRE-EXISTED as the WORD of God.

    I believe that the Greek for WORD is "logos" and according to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, "logos" means God's WISDOM manifest in the creation, government and redemption of the world.

    Thus, God's&nbsp; WISDOM manifest in the redemption of the world is His PLAN of Salvation which was WITH God in the beginning and WAS God - meaning, it's FULFILLMENT is CERTAIN because it was God who PLANNED it (cf. Numbers 23:19).

    This PLAN was FULFILLED with the BIRTH of Jesus who was FOREORDAINED or chosen in advance BEFORE the creation of the world, to IMPLEMENT the PLAN.

    Thus, we read in Eph. 1:3-11 TEV that God had PLANNED from the beginning to GATHER everything together IN UNION with Christ, with Christ as HEAD.

    And Christ is the HEAD of the BODY, the church (Col. 1:18)

    Ed


    &nbsp;
     
  15. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Jesus was fully man and fully God. Both at the same time. Men saw God's human body, but they didn't see the spiritual being. We don't see each other's spirits either, do we? We see the body that contains the spirit, just as people could see Jesus's human body, but not His deity-spirit.
     
  16. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    &nbsp;
    Lambs, To keep on proclaiming that Jesus was God and man at the same time is to deny that He came in the flesh as stated in my last post....&nbsp; 2 John 1:7, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
    The only reason you believe Jesus was fully God and fully man is because someone told you that and taught you that. The scriptures didn't teach you that because if you read that into scripture, then the bible is not consistant!&nbsp; The scriptures do not contradict itself because scripture is very explicit in that it teaches that God cannot be tempted:

    James declared that "God cannot be tempted with evil" (James 1:13).

    The scripture is explicit that Christ was tempted:

    Luke 4:1-2, "And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being forty days tempted of the devil."

    Luke 22:28, "Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations."

    Hebrews 2:18, "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted..."

    Hebrews 4:15, "...but was in all points tempted like as we are..."


    It is impossible to conceive of an all-wise, all-powerful God being tempted to sin. God could not possibly sin. Yet Jesus Christ was tempted in all points like ourselves, and if we say he could not possibly have sinned, we deny the reality of his tempting and of his overcoming.&nbsp; Jesus was tempted; God cannot be tempted: therefore the Trinity theory is false.&nbsp;



    &nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  17. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Hello edpobre and God bless you,

    If I were a Jew who lived 100 years before Christ was born I would never have known that Isaiah7:14 (i.e. the “Virgin Birth”) was referent to Jesus had it not been for the revelation of the New Testament. Why? Because the prophecy was originally fulfilled in 2Kings. Also note vs16. How does this apply to Christ? Therefore we see that although this prophecy was not originally fulfilled in Christ, it foreshadowed of the coming Messiah. However, I would have had no idea otherwise had it not been for the NT reveling this to me.

    As for Christ as God’s Wisdom. You stated in your previous reply:

    I believe that the Greek for WORD is "logos" and according to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, "logos" means God's WISDOM manifest in the creation, government and redemption of the world.

    In addition see:

    Prov8:29-30 “….when He marked out the foundations of the earth. I was the Craftsman at His side

    ..cf..

    Jn1:1 “….was with God.”

    ..cf..

    Jeremiah10:12 “But God made the earth by his power; He founded the world by His Wisdom….”

    ..cf..[*Note the parallel.-]

    1Cor1:24 “…but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the Wisdom of God

    In fact, Christ states this Himself:

    Luke11:49 “Therefore the Wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute, that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundaton of the world may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the alter and the temple.”

    ..cf..

    Matt23:34 “Therefore indeed I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, ‘that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the alter.”


    Not at all. I understand and know for fact that Jesus is the ‘Word’ manifested as flesh. I have merely demonstrated to you that being a “man” in no way excludes Jesus from possessing two natures.


    Regarding 1Jn1:1-2..cf..Rev19:13:


    Regarding Heb1:1-2. I see no way how this excludes Christ from pre-existence. God spoke indirectly before through the prophets, yet in the last days directly through God the Son. For instance….

    Who spoke through the prophets? Read:

    1Peter1:10-11 “Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances of which the Spirit OF Christ IN them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.”

    ..cf..

    Romans8:9 “You however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit OF God lives IN you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit OF Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is IN you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.”


    One must read the above with Acts1:11-12 to get the whole picture. Does scripture contradict scripture? No. Now honestly ask yourself; “who’s feet will touch down upon Mt. Olivet?”

    Rather, on the contrary, the Jews were enraged that Jesus made claim to merely being God’s Son. See Jn5:18 where the narrator interjects to state Jesus’ status of equality with God by virtue of being the Son of God, and the enraged reaction of the Jews as a result.

    It is the same Apostle John that referred to Jesus as the ‘Word’ in Jn1:1; 1Jn1:1-2; and Rev19:13.

    Actually Moses merely wrote down what YHWH directly spoke unto him. There wasn’t any “misconception” when God Himself spoke directly unto the prophets (Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekial, etc…).

    Jn1:1..cf..Jn1:12..cf..Jn1:14..cf..1Jn1:1-2..cf..Rev19:13..etc..

    Note carefully Jn1 vs10-12 speaking of the ‘Word’:
    • vs10 “He was IN the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him
    • vs11 “He came unto His own, and His own did not receive Him.
    • But as many as received Him , to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His NAME:….”..cf..Jn20:31

    How can the ‘Word’ have a “name” on which to believe? :idea:



    I do not see how pre-“ordaining” someone excludes them from existence prior. A prince, for example, is ordained to be King. Yet he exists prior to becoming a King.

    Read the following carefully:

    Jn6:38,42..cf..Jn17:5..cf..

    John6:62 “What then if you should see the Son of Man [i.e. Jesus] ascend where He was before

    ___________________________

    God bless you in the highest, Edpobre--FM
     
  18. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    This is an excellent observation. You can’t expect the ‘ginomai’-ed “flesh” of Christ to constitute seeing the eternal divine nature. :)

    God bless--FM
     
  19. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Hello Jefferson and God bless,

    The reason this was written was to refute gnosticism. They believed that Jesus came to earth as a ‘Spirit creature’ because the flesh of man was too wicked. They believed that although he was seen, He would not leave footprints etc…

    The only way you can see a problem with this is if you are an OV theist.

    The word “tempt” here in the Greek is apeirastos <551>

    Click here for details

    Note the clause “with evil”.

    The word for ‘tempt’ in the Greek here is peirazo <3985>

    Luke22:28 <3986>
    Heb2:18 <3985>
    Heb4:15 <3985>

    Click here and here for details.

    You can see an example of this word [<3985>] used here:

    Mat 16:1 The Pharisees [5330] also [2532] with the Sadducees [4523] came [4334] (5631), and [2532] tempting [3985] (5723) desired [1905] (5656) him [846] that he would shew [1925] (5658) them [846] a sign [4592] from [1537] heaven [3772].

    As you can see from the context, the word used here more conveys the idea of “testing” or “proving”, NOT tempting “with evil”.

    See here as well:

    Mat 22:18 But [1161] Jesus [2424] perceived [1097] (5631) their [846] wickedness [4189], and said [2036] (5627), Why [5101] tempt ye [3985] (5719) me [3165], [ye] hypocrites [5273]?

    Jhn 8:6 [1161] This [5124] they said [3004] (5707), tempting [3985] (5723) him [846], **that they might have to accuse ) him [846]. But [1161] Jesus [2424] stooped [2955] (5660) down [2736], and with [his] finger [1147] wrote [1125] (5707) on [1519] the ground [1093], [as though he heard [4364] (5740) them not [3361]].

    **Note the circumstances. Compare to satan in the wilderness. In the context above was Jesus being tempted as to struggle within himself to sin? No.


    So what about the Father? Read:


    Act 5:9 Then [1161] Peter [4074] said [2036] (5627) unto [4314] her [846], How [5101] is it that [3754] ye [5213] have agreed together [4856] (5681) to tempt [3985] (5658) the Spirit [4151] of the Lord [2962]? behold [2400] (5628), the feet [4228] of them which have buried [2290] (5660) thy [4675] husband [435] [are] at [1909] the door [2374], and [2532] shall carry [1627] [0] thee [4571] out [1627] (5692).


    How does this apply? Note that it is the same word used of Christ. Evidently it can carry a meaning of “trying” yet without the condoning of the Lord. They were trying to “test” God.

    Act 15:10 Now [3568] therefore [3767] why [5101] tempt ye [3985] (5719) God [2316], to put [2007] (5629) a yoke [2218] upon [1909] the neck [5137] of the disciples [3101], which [3739] neither [3777] our [2257] fathers [3962] nor [3777] we [2249] were able [2480] (5656) to bear [941] (5658)?

    Dito.

    1Cr 10:9 Neither [3366] let us tempt [1598] (5725) Christ [5547], as [2531] some [5100] of them [846] also [2532] tempted [3985] (5656), and [2532] were destroyed [622] (5639) of [5259] serpents [3789].

    Where did this occur?..cf..

    Hbr 3:9 When [3757] your [5216] fathers [3962] tempted [3985] (5656) me [3165], proved [1381] (5656) me [3165], and [2532] saw [1492] (5627) my [3450] works [2041] forty [5062] years [2094].

    ….in the desert with YHWH.

    What most anti-Trinitarians fail to see is the other half of the story. Read:

    Jam 1:13 Let [3004] [0] no man [3367] say [3004] (5720) when he is tempted [3985] (5746), [3754] I am tempted [3985] (5743) of [575] God [2316]: for [1063] God [2316] cannot be tempted [551] [2076] (5748) with evil [2556], neither [1161] tempteth [3985] [0] he [846] [3985] (5719) any man [3762]:

    ..cf..

    Hbr 11:17 By faith [4102] Abraham [11], when he was tried [3985] (5746), offered up [4374] (5754) Isaac [2464]: and [2532] he that had received [324] (5666) the promises [1860] offered up [4374] (5707) his only begotten [3439] [son], “

    Note the same word used. Seems we have an apparent contradiction. Therefore what is meant by this? YHWH cannot be tempted as to succumb to sin ( as Jesus more than well proved). Neither does God tempt anyone as to succumb to sin (as you will note the interjection by the Angel of the Lord in the Genesis account).

    More if you need it.

    After all. Why would an omnipotent God, need to “test” the very one he foreknew would be Messiah? If there was a chance He could sin then Christ would have failed. If He failed, then the entire prophecies would be moot therefore disproving the existence of God Himself.

    We see that the word "tempt" is used dually of the Father and Son, and the meaning can have a broad range of contextual meaning. We should never simply jump to conclusions. :hug:


    God bless you in the highest--FM
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Future Man
    Similarly, you would NOT have thought that Prov. 8:22 was referring to ANYONE other than God's WISDOM.

    Christ was NEVER God's WISDOM. The belief that Jesus WAS God's WISDOM implies that God HAD to DEPEND on another God/person for WISDOM.This is a BLATANT attempt to LIMIT God in a BOX. This is an INSULT to God!

    God is ALL-KNOWING, is He not? . He did NOT need anyone else (another God/person) to PLAN and IMPLEMENT the creation, government and redemption of the world. In FACT,&nbsp;Jesus &nbsp;(the other God?) does NOT even know the day or hour of his second coming. How can Jesus be God's WISDOM????

     
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