Joel Osteen

Zecryphon · Dec 24, 2007

Nadiine said:
Yes exactly. He is NOT a Pastor. He's Tony Robbins - just sprinkling in some comments about God here and there.

In my most humble opinion, I'll tell you what i truly think - I honestly believe he's ashamed of the full gospel of Christ, becuz he cannot bring himself to even utter the entire message of salvation and our human condition - or that we MUST repent of sin... he can't even bear to utter those words. When those questions are asked of him, he looks like he's literally uncomfortable & squirming. He can EASILY breeze thru the "I'm gifted to encourage" shpeel... get him on sin, repentance or important doctrinal issues & watch him start sweating bullets. (I truly wonder if he could even PREACH a sermon on a doctrine using the bible!).
He prefers stories about his family & other people & pep talks instead.

Well, that's the people want -

I don't know if he's ashamed as much as he's ignorant. I don't get the same vibe from Osteen that I get from somebody like Benny Hinn. I think Osteen truly wants to do good for the kingdom of God, he just doesn't know how. Also, let's not forget that a Joel Osteen is just the newr version of Robert Schuller. There's a guy who also never talks about sin and repentance. He has only preached on the cross once in his entire career. It's all about the power of positive thinking with him. If you believe it, you can achieve it. Guys like Schuller are directly responsible for the "name it and claim it" preachers we have now. Take Schuller's theology (whatever that is) and run with it.

Zecryphon · Dec 24, 2007

Mathetes the kerux said:
The biggest problem with Mormonism is it's proclivity to revisionism . . . they see revelation as still open and being revising in their views they have no problem with claiming error on behalf of their founders and in the doctrinal foundations of their theology . . . but claiming that current "prophets" (NOT in the Pentecostal/Charismatic sense of the term) have given NEW revelation that supercedes old revelation.

Hence you have polytheism and polygamy PREVALENT i the early days of Mormonism . . . but rare today and only by "fundamentalist" groups as defined by their own conservatives.

IOW, there are beliefs that raged in the beginning that are not even held among mainstream Mormons today . . .

Actually, there is a difference between the LDS and Mormons. Some LDS adherents will take great offense at being called Mormon, because it's the Mormons who tend to be the more traditional, engaging in polygamy and holding to the original teachings of their faith. Mormonism is always revising what it teaches, turns out DNA testing was one of the worst things that could have happened to that religion.

Mathetes the kerux · Dec 24, 2007

Zecryphon said:
Actually, there is a difference between the LDS and Mormons. Some LDS adherents will take great offense at being called Mormon, because it's the Mormons who tend to be the more traditional, engaging in polygamy and holding to the original teachings of their faith. Mormonism is always revising what it teaches, turns out DNA testing was one of the worst things that could have happened to that religion.

Indeed.

Nadiine · Dec 24, 2007

Zecryphon said:
I don't know if he's ashamed as much as he's ignorant. I don't get the same vibe from Osteen that I get from somebody like Benny Hinn. I think Osteen truly wants to do good for the kingdom of God, he just doesn't know how.

I hope you're right .. but with the amount of discomfort he displays, it didn't appear as ignorance to me, but not liking that part of it.

Well, speculation is speculation - I'll let God work it all out. Until then, I'll continue to dissaprove of his repedative, partial PC messages.

IisJustMe · Dec 25, 2007

Zecryphon said:
Actually, there is a difference between the LDS and Mormons. Some LDS adherents will take great offense at being called Mormon, because it's the Mormons who tend to be the more traditional, engaging in polygamy and holding to the original teachings of their faith. Mormonism is always revising what it teaches, turns out DNA testing was one of the worst things that could have happened to that religion.

I've heard that also, and I have a friend who works for a wire service who told me their stylebook calls for them to use the term "Mormon" in reference only to the Utah church. Much of the confusion comes from the 1872 split between the LDS and what was formerly known as the "RLDS" based in Independence, Mo. People continued to believe they were the same church, even though the RLDS ("Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints") disavowed Brigham Young and those who followed him. The RLDS claimed they were the "true followers" of Joseph Smith, who was actually killed in Nauvoo, Illinois, before the pioneers even moved westward into Missouri in 1830.

Since 2001, the RLDS has been known as the "Community of Christ" and while it has tried to rebrand itself as a mainstream evangelical church, it still strongly identifies with Joseph Smith and continues to use the Book of Mormon as a "second inspired gospel" like the LDS. The official web site of the church glosses over the details of Smith's "revelation" preferring not to go into the telling of the so-called "golden plates" and the other nonsense still held near and dear by the LDS. Nonetheless, the Community of Christ is really nothing more than warmed-over Mormonism. Their web site is here:

http://www.cofchrist.org/

As to there actually being a difference between Mormons and the LDS, there is none. The official outreach web site for the church is, in fact, this:

http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/

Waddell · Dec 26, 2007

Zecryphon said:
Actually, there is a difference between the LDS and Mormons. Some LDS adherents will take great offense at being called Mormon, because it's the Mormons who tend to be the more traditional, engaging in polygamy and holding to the original teachings of their faith. Mormonism is always revising what it teaches, turns out DNA testing was one of the worst things that could have happened to that religion.

Sorry, but BUNK!

I was a morman. Thank God He saved me.

Trust me, you're not going to want to go down this road.

Zecryphon · Dec 26, 2007

Waddell said:
Sorry, but BUNK!

I was a morman. Thank God He saved me.

Trust me, you're not going to want to go down this road.

I have no interest in going down this road as Mormons are not Christians. They worship a Christ that is different from the one revealed in the scriptures. If you were a Mormon, you'd know how to spell it.

Sunrise78 · Dec 27, 2007

Zecryphon said:
If Osteen starts talking about sin and repentance he will lose a great number of people in his church. There's very few people who can handle being told that they are a sinner. There's very few people that can handle being told THEY are the reason Jesus had to die on a cross. People think they're good and that God loves them because they are so good. Which has always made me ask the question: "If you're a good person, what do you need a savior for? What do you need to be saved from?"

Exactly!

The true gospel of the cross, repentance and salvation from sin is what the Holy Spirit uses to convict people and draw them to Himself. People say, "well, he's preaching the way he preaches to reach more people." But with what? You might have more people in the seats, but have you really reached them? Or are they just lulled into a sense of complacency? If one preaches a gospel that is not the full gospel in order to "reach more people", are they truly preaching the gospel, or are they just watering down the message to make it more palatable to those who don't want to hear about how they are sinners in need of salvation? I think that is what Joel Osteen is doing.

Grateful4God · Dec 28, 2007

I've seen some of his messages on TV. I wouldnt say pure fluff. Sometimes I think its refreshing to hear someone who speaks of the Love of Jesus and not always giving his translation of the scriptures. Jesus himself did not preach of hells fires and condemning every mans sins.

JustAsIam77 · Dec 28, 2007

Nadiine said:
Absolutely Bill, amen.

But then, God doesn't always use material blessing (wealth) to prosper each one of us. I can't help but think that we're geared more towards thinking this way (materialistically) due to our modern culture.?
I could be wrong.

peace

Of course the "prosperity" preachers fully understand the inherant "material" nature of their flock. Thats why they continue to feed it to them week in and week out.

Below is a tutorial, (tongue in cheek), for potential prosperity preacher wannabes. From a website exposing this fleecing of the flock for fun and profit:

Quote, "Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: "God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else". Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God's eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry".

Not bashing, just sayin.

I watched the Larry King interview with Mr Osteen and his wife. It made me uncomfortable just watching how uncomfortable Osteen was with any direct question from Larry King that would require a biblical answer. He stumbled over basics such as who Davids son was. First saying Samual, then did correct himself.

I guess we are not to judge. That's for God. But if it walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck ...

IisJustMe · Dec 28, 2007

Hey 'Aslam' welcome to the thread. I've not seen you on the forum before, so if I've just missed or overlooked you, sorry, but "hello" anyway. LOL Do you mind sharing the web site this came from?

JustAsIam77 said:
Quote, "Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: "God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else". Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God's eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry".

That's good stuff, very appropriate here.

kallenfranchise · Dec 29, 2007

Larry King & Joel Osteen interview transcript

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0712/26/lkl.01.html

God Bless You!!

Cris413 · Dec 29, 2007

VCViking said:
Here's the video and transcript from Fox News Sunday 12/23/07.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318054,00.html

I don't know where to begin and I certainly do not have the time now.

I will say this. He is a nice guy but has no business being a pastor. He is unqualified. He is a stumbling block to millions. He is more concerned about how people feel than there eternal salvation. He is more concerned about how people feel now than how they will feel in eternal punishment.

He should be a counselor, not a pastor.

I finally got a moment to watch this...

The red flag IMO...is how many times he used the word "self" anytime the focus is on our"self" the focus is not on God.

Osteen's message is one of people focusing inward to themselves rather than focusing upward towards God...

...not good.

IMHO we cannot change ourselves...not on any real significant level...

It's only the transforming power of the Holy Spirit...a sacrificial life given to God that produces the fruit of the Spirit.

I get pretty uneasy when I hear people suggest we listen to our "inner voice"...I'm thinking...we should be listening to God's voice.

I don't know Mr Osteen...but his message was pretty clear regarding a focus on one's self...

which seems to me is clearly in opposition to what the Lord tells us:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mathetes the kerux · Dec 29, 2007

Cris413 said:
I finally got a moment to watch this...

The red flag IMO...is how many times he used the word "self" anytime the focus is on our"self" the focus is not on God.

Osteen's message is one of people focusing inward to themselves rather than focusing upward towards God...

...not good.

IMHO we cannot change ourselves...not on any real significant level...

It's only the transforming power of the Holy Spirit...a sacrificial life given to God that produces the fruit of the Spirit.

I get pretty uneasy when I hear people suggest we listen to our "inner voice"...I'm thinking...we should be listening to God's voice.

I don't know Mr Osteen...but his message was pretty clear regarding a focus on one's self...

which seems to me is clearly in opposition to what the Lord tells us:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Amen!

VCViking · Dec 29, 2007

Cris413 said:
The red flag IMO...is how many times he used the word "self" anytime the focus is on our"self" the focus is not on God.

I noticed the same thing.

Nadiine · Dec 29, 2007

Cris413 said:
[snipp]
I don't know Mr Osteen...but his message was pretty clear regarding a focus on one's self...

which seems to me is clearly in opposition to what the Lord tells us:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Definitely an accurate observation with scripture support. Focusing on self is most of our problem.

Cris413 · Dec 29, 2007

Nadiine said:
Definitely an accurate observation with scripture support. Focusing on self is most of our problem.

Indeed sister. Which is why our Lord teaches otherwise. And a doctrine focused on self...IMHO...is a most dangerous doctrine.

Zecryphon · Dec 29, 2007

Cris413 said:
Indeed sister. Which is why our Lord teaches otherwise. And a doctrine focused on self...IMHO...is a most dangerous doctrine.

This is most certainly true.

Sunrise78 · Dec 29, 2007

JustAsIam77 said:
Quote, "Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: "God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else". Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God's eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry".

This would be good as a modern-day Screwtape Letter ...

Nadiine · Dec 29, 2007

Cris413 said:
Indeed sister. Which is why our Lord teaches otherwise. And a doctrine focused on self...IMHO...is a most dangerous doctrine.

So true - another thing I hear alot from people who claim they're Christians is "trust your heart" or "listen to your heart".

That's what got me into all of my trouble - & I had to run to God to beg Him to fix it for me.

Joel Osteen

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