Job

[Yahu]

Yep - WOF twisting the scriptures...again

Hey, we actually agree on something.

 

[TozerBGood]

besides, that verse says justified, so we can't take it to mean justified in it's fullest sense, or else we are justified by works. That is what i meant by overpressing the text.

Exactly. Job was a justified believer. Abraham was a justified believer. Abraham is called the Father of those who believe. Many think that Job lived close to Abraham's time, but may actually have come after Abraham, hence justifying calling Abraham the Father of those who believe.

Job is used as a patriarch example for patience in the face of suffering, and is called a prophet, and there is no indication that he had anything to do with the cause of his own satanic attacks as Optimax's logic is obviously trying to lead to. He must twist the scriptures in order to come to this conclusion, in a failed attempt to justify his own WOF false doctrine.

James Ch. 5: 10 Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

 

[Yahu]

Job was set on doing things Job's way instead of God's way.

Sound familiar?

Nope, not at all.

 

[Optimax]

Nope, not at all.

So, you have NEVER done that?

 

[Yahu]

So, you have NEVER done that?

The topic is Job, not me. There is nothing in Job suggesting he is doing things his way as opposed to Yah's way.

 

[TozerBGood]

Hey, we actually agree on something.

Yes, as long as you stick to the bible, we likely won't have a problem.

 

[Optimax]

The topic is Job, not me. There is nothing in Job suggesting he is doing things his way as opposed to Yah's way.

OK!

Are you sure about that?

You said and I quote.

There is nothing in Job suggesting he is doing things his way as opposed to Yah's way.

Are you really sure about that?

 

[Frogster]

So, you have NEVER done that?

he was complaining, and felt like God did not hear him, and said negative things.

Psalm 55
Give ear to my prayer, O God,
and hide not yourself from my plea for mercy!
2 Attend to me, and answer me;
I am restless in my complaint and I moan,3 because of the noise of the enemy,
because of the oppression of the wicked.
For they drop trouble upon me, and in anger they bear a grudge against me.


He felt and experienced it, and talked about it, and was full of fear.

4 My heart is in anguish within me;
the terrors of death have fallen upon me.
5 Fear and trembling come upon me, and horror overwhelms me.


he was weak, and could not end the trial, he could not fly away.

6 And I say, “Oh, that I had wings like a dove!
I would fly away and be at rest;
7 yes, I would wander far away;
I would lodge in the wilderness; Selah
8 I would hurry to find a shelter
from the raging wind and tempest.”
9 Destroy, O Lord, divide their tongues;
for I see violence and strife in the city.
10 Day and night they go around it
on its walls,
and iniquity and trouble are within it;
11 ruin is in its midst;
oppression and fraud
do not depart from its marketplace.

Again, he spoke about the enemy taunting him,


12 For it is not an enemy who taunts me— then I could bear it;
it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me—
then I could hide from him.
13 But it is you, a man, my equal,
my companion, my familiar friend.
14 We used to take sweet counsel together;
within God's house we walked in the throng.
15 Let death steal over them;
let them go down to Sheol alive;
for evil is in their dwelling place and in their heart.

16 But I call to God,
and the Lord will save me.

he will complain until God hears him.

17 Evening and morning and at noon
I utter my complaint and moan,
and he hears my voice.18 He redeems my soul in safety
from the battle that I wage,
for many are arrayed against me.
19 God will give ear and humble them,
he who is enthroned from of old, Selah
because they do not change
and do not fear God.

20 My companion stretched out his hand against his friends;
he violated his covenant.
21 His speech was smooth as butter,
yet war was in his heart;
his words were softer than oil,
yet they were drawn swords.

22 Cast your burden on the Lord,
and he will sustain you;
he will never permit
the righteous to be moved.


he even wished them to hell. Was he unjust because of these words?


23 But you, O God, will cast them down
into the pit of destruction;men of blood and treachery
shall not live out half their days.But I will trust in you.

 

[TozerBGood]

Indeed YAHU and I agree (and Frogster too apparently) that there is nothing suggesting Job is doing things his way as opposed to YAH's way. To assume he was wrong for praying and sacrificing for his wayward children is far fetched to say the least. You must twist the interpretation to come to that conclusion.

In the end of Job's suffering (starting in Ch 38) , God challenges Job for questioning his reasoning, and that is All. But that questioning came after Job's suffering had occurred...as a result of his complaining (as Frogster points out) not before.

Ch 38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

CH 40 The Lord said to Job:

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the Lord:

4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

In none of this does God say Job was the cause of his own satanic attacks. However God does challenge Job for questioning the reasoning, and the justification of his suffering.

And in the same tone, Paul says the following, justifying God's sovereignty...

Rom 9:20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

God does not need a reason (caused by Job...as Optimax would imply) to allow satan to attack him. He has his own reasons, and does not need to explain Himself. He may explain Himself if He chooses. He is sovereign...end of story.

 

[Optimax]

Indeed YAHU and I agree (and Frogster too apparently) that there is nothing suggesting Job is doing things his way as opposed to YAH's way. To assume he was wrong for praying and sacrificing for his wayward children is far fetched to say the least.

In the end of Job's suffering (starting in Ch 38) , God challenges Job for questioning his reasoning, and that is All. But that questioning came after Job's suffering had occurred...as a result of his complaining (as Frogster points out) not before.





In none of this does God say Job was the cause of his own satanic attacks. However God does challenge Job for questioning the reasoning, and the justification of his suffering.

And in the same tone, Paul says the following, justifying God's sovereignty...


God does not need a reason (caused by Job...as Optimax would imply) to allow satan to attack him. He has his own reasons, and does not need to explain Himself. He may explain Himself if He chooses. He is sovereign...end of story.

You have part of what is going on with Job.

God is sovereign.

But the story continues.

Scripture in the book of Job says that Job, was going to do things his own way and would argue with God about it.

The scriptures you quoted show Job's attitude when God confronted Job about it.

 

[Optimax]

I am waiting to see if Yahu responds to my post #67

 

[TozerBGood]

I am waiting to see if Yahu responds to my post #67

YAHU already answered you.

See my next post - this whole thread trying to make this all Job's fault has no basis in fact.

 

[TozerBGood]

You have part of what is going on with Job.

God is sovereign.

But the story continues.

Scripture in the book of Job says that Job, was going to do things his own way and would argue with God about it.

The scriptures you quoted show Job's attitude when God confronted Job about it.

If sacrificing and praying for his own children was so wrong as you say (not YAH's way), then God obviously doesn't agree with you as in Ch 41, he states that Job had spoken rightly, and commands his accusers to get bulls and rams and go to Job, and sacrifice and Job to pray for them. Hmmm... that is what you are saying Job was doing wrong...in regards to HIS OWN CHILDREN...am I correct? How is it that God commands the very same thing be done with Jobs accusers???....Go figure that one...eh????

Really Optimax...you should stop twisting the scriptures to your own end.

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.

 

[TozerBGood]

In your attempts to twist the story, in order to justify your own WOF false doctrine, you have somehow missed that God has accepted Job in a priestly role of mediation, even though the nation of Israel & the priesthood did not exist yet.

If Job was such a sinner, doing things his way, instead of YAH's way, how in the heck would God accept him in the role of mediation? That would certainly be inconsistent of Him now, don't you think?

But then WOF doctrine makes God out to be weak anyways, since you must use the power of your own faith, and words, to get what you want, whether God wants it or not, or is too weak to do what must be accomplished by you, and the power of your faith and words. And that is just one BIG REASON why it is a FALSE DOCTRINE.

 

[Optimax]

In the midst of all your accusations of "FALSE DOCTRINE" and "WOF false doctrine.

Got a real simple question for you while I wait on Yahu.

When you see scripture that contradicts what you have been saying/believe.

Will you admit it?

Or ignore or discount it and continue with what you said/believed.

 

[TozerBGood]

In the midst of all your accusations of "FALSE DOCTRINE" and "WOF false doctrine.

Got a real simple question for you while I wait on Yahu.

When you see scripture that contradicts what you have been saying/believe.

Will you admit it?

Or ignore or discount it and continue with what you said/believed.

All you have done is twist the meaning of those scriptures. So no...I will not admit what you have twisted.

And it is not an accusation, it is fact. You just don't know it yet...but you will, and you do not seem to understand the harm you cause to the body of Christ, or care.

 

[Optimax]

All you have done is twist the meaning of those scriptures. So no...I will not admit what you have twisted.

So even when scripture is shown you that contradicts what you said/believe you will not admit it.

That is what you just said!

You stated that even when it is proved you are wrong you will not admit it.

 

[TozerBGood]

So even when scripture is shown you that contradicts what you said/believe you will not admit it.

That is what you just said!

You stated that even when it is proved you are wrong you will not admit it.

There you go twisting my words as well.


I am now going to ask the Lord to put you to the test, a trial to come, which will shake the false doctrine from your mind. The kind of trial/test, which will leave you without a doubt, that the WOF is a well without water, and bring you to repentance. You will know that using your WOF will avail you nothing.

He knows your heart better than you or I, and if justified, and He wills it, He will accomplish it, for His name's sake. Because I believe you are simply duped, and do not have evil intent, however I could be wrong. If I am right, then the Lord will have mercy and be compassionate.

 

[Optimax]

There you go twisting my words as well.


I am now going to ask the Lord to put you to the test, a trial to come, which will shake the false doctrine from your mind. The kind of trial/test, which will leave you without a doubt, that the WOF is a well without water, and bring you to repentance. He knows your heart better than you or I, and if justified, and He wills it, He will accomplish it, for His name's sake.

Interesting how you speak from ignorance.

I have been through test already that if I had not understood faith and how to do faith on purpose I would have been severely shaken.

However, having a firm foundation of learning, understanding and living by faith since 1980 I have the victory that God promised in these test.

You bypassed the fact that you said and I quoted what you said that you will not change your beliefs even when scripture presented proves you wrong.


Job at least when confronted by God recognized what God said was true regardless of what he believed in the past.

 

[Optimax]

Back to Job.

Anybody know the scripture I am talking about?