Job

[Optimax]

The title is a reference to the Book of Job.

Not anything about a job.

Another thread about the accuser which is the devil.

The devil is the accuser of the brethern.

Before one can accuse.

This includes the devil.

There has to be "grounds" for the accusation the accuser makes.

What "grounds" or evidence did the devil use to accuse Job?

With God as the Judge the grounds or evidence used must be true.

If not, the judge would toss the "case" out of the court.

We get a rare but revealing glimpse into the High Court of Heaven in operation when the devil comes before God and "accuses" Job.

Did Job give the devil grounds to accuse him with?

If so:

What grounds do you see in the Book of Job that the devil could use to accuse Job before God?

 

[Ajax 777]

Job was righteous. God is Who brought mention of Job to the devil,
not the other way around. He knew Job was righteous and had faith
to endure, and deliberately goaded the devil into bringing an accusation
against him, knowing full well that by testing Job, his endurance would
bring Him glory.

 

[spitoutthekoolaid]

I might tend to agree with Ajax ...

The devil's most basic "grounds" would be that Job is a "human being" and capable of sin. There need not even be more grounds than that. However the Accuser pointed out that Job had a lot of favor, and if that favor were taken away, then Job would show his "true nature" and curse God, etc.

But even after everything of Job's was struck --- things of his world, his flesh, the flesh of his loved ones --- Job's *spirit* showed it's nature. And this is important to see.

Where as I don't know if God deliberately "goaded" the Accuser, Job is a fine example of why men will judge angels, and the Accuser is ultimately condemned and we can partake with the Lord in His ruling of His Kingdom.

Human beings, are lower than the angels. Spirits trapped in flesh, given over to the flesh. So we have factors working against us. Angels ARE spirit, and not trapped in the flesh. And the Accuser who brings accusation against us, continually uses God's own words, our own natures, and "truths" against us, which if you're being "fair", can be considered as valid arguments, given the circumstances. Furthermore, the Accuser is capable of drawing spirits into perdition ... so that they become slaves to the flesh. So it's not as though Satan doesn't have a "leg to stand on". He's got evidence, experience, and spirits that have fallen over to fleshly lusts and evil to show that not only are humans weak willed, but so are angels, and he can "prove it".

But where he falls short, is with people like Job, who prove that their spirit can still belong to God's, and that they are, in fact, CHILDREN OF GOD. Strike them, in their weakest moments, where it hurts the most, and their spirits will still stay safe with their Lord. And this is important, because it shows how beautiful, and amazing, human beings really can be, and provides EVIDENCE AGAINST THE ANGELS AND SATAN.

So when given the opportunity, the spirit of angels who fell, choose flesh, and don't come back. The spirit of Satan, chooses condemnation and judgement and evil, death, destruction, deception, and bloodshed, and doesn't relent. But the spirit of man ... the elect, Children of Light, Children of God, brethren of Christ ... are *subject* to the flesh, but ultimately choose Life, peace, faith, joy, love, and the Spirit of the Creator, *even when they are tested* in both areas. Thus, we will judge the very angels, and "spirits", that condemned us, sought our destruction, and tried to tear us down ... but were wrong in their assessment that we could be overcome. Not all of us turned out like them, which they thought we would.

So I don't think it's as though God needed Job to build a case against Satan and the Sons of God ... I think Job had an enemy, and God not only ultimately gave Job empowerment over his enemy, but God gave Job the right to stand in judgement over his enemy ... an enemy who was more powerful, and had a "higher place" than Job. So we can trust Job's perception, and rulings, on Justice ... because he was given a gun to commit murder, so to speak, but did not commit murder. Instead, the one who gave him the gun to "set him up" will go down for attempted murder, with Job as a "witness". And the more Job's we have, the more empowered our Godly Family is, as we fill the Kingdom and evil has no place there, because even it's arguments against us can be proven wrong.

Peter is another example. Satan wanted to sift him as wheat, and did ... but Peter passed. Did he deny the Lord ? Of course. But his spirit stayed the same ... and when given the chance, he endured, and stayed with God, revealing the difference between the Children of God and others. Same with David after he committed his atrocity with Bathsheeba. Same with John the Baptist when he was considering denouncing Jesus as Lord. Their spirits showed why they are the elect, and will judge angels, whom they were made "lower than". Even when our advantages are taken away, and our spirits are compared side by side to the spirits that fall ... we prove their accusations about us incorrect, even when we still have the flesh working against us, which they did not have.

* For the record, I'm not really trying to define the "difference in spirits" here, just using general terms to get a point across I think ...

 

[Bob Carabbio]

SO - another "It was all Job's fault" thread.

Job had TWO issues that God was after - euphemistically referred to as: "Leviathan" (human pride), and "Behemoth" (a reliance on human Strength). The exercise is all about God bringing Job face to face with His issues, leading Job to Repent of them, and grow in the Lord.

And God "applied satan" with surgical precision to accomplish the ministry.

I Suspect that Job is a prototypical presentation of how God STILL deals with his people.

I find it comforting to KNOW that the enemy can't get to me (that pesky hedge God has around us) unless Father raises it in ways that will result (eventually) in my GOOD - i.e. make me more like Jesus.

 

[Optimax]

The devil did not accuse Job!

The hedge was down and the devil did not even know it.

 

[spitoutthekoolaid]

The devil did not accuse Job!

The hedge was down and the devil did not even know it.

How you are seeing this ?

 

[Yahu]

The title is a reference to the Book of Job.

Not anything about a job.

Another thread about the accuser which is the devil.

The devil is the accuser of the brethern.

Before one can accuse.

This includes the devil.

There has to be "grounds" for the accusation the accuser makes.

What "grounds" or evidence did the devil use to accuse Job?

With God as the Judge the grounds or evidence used must be true.

If not, the judge would toss the "case" out of the court.

We get a rare but revealing glimpse into the High Court of Heaven in operation when the devil comes before God and "accuses" Job.

Did Job give the devil grounds to accuse him with?

If so:

What grounds do you see in the Book of Job that the devil could use to accuse Job before God?

It was Yah that brought Job to HaSatan's attention. There were no grounds to attack Job. Yah allowed HaSatan to test Job to see if he would fall into sin when Yah removed His hedge of protection.

IMO there was a reason to have HaSatan focused on Job. The attacks HaSatan sent on Job spilled over onto Egypt and Yah used Moses to free the children of Israel with the plagues HaSatan sent onto Job. Many of the references in Job line up with events that took place at the time of Exodus. Even one of Job's friends was Eliphaz, the firstborn son of Essau when he was an old man. The timing fits.

Yah allowed HaSatan to attack an innocent man to free a great multitude. This is a type and shadow of the messiah that suffered so that others would be set free. Did Yeshua have grounds for HaSatan to attack and kill Him?

 

[Yahu]

Now HaSatan sent many attacks against Job. Not only the loss of his material wealth, children and health but those attacks continued through his wife and his 'so-called' friends. They operated as agents of HaSatan.

Job's three friends were pagans preaching pagan doctrines at Job. You have to go back to the Hebrew and also understand all the pagan references to see this. Many of the times in you translated that say 'God' do so in error. The 3 friends of Job followed different gods. They even used different Hebrew words. Eliphaz also makes it very clear he is a 'sun god' worshiper. He is attempting to get Job to bow down to HaSatan to get the attacks to stop which is HaSatan's goal. Eliphaz preaches Babylonian sun god doctrine to Job. Eliphaz was also a mixture of paganism and knowledge of Yah. His father was Hebrew but his mother was a Canaanite. His religion is a mixture.

 

[Yahu]

Human beings, are lower than the angels. Spirits trapped in flesh, given over to the flesh. So we have factors working against us. Angels ARE spirit, and not trapped in the flesh.

I have to disagree with this statement. First off 'angels' are messengers so they can be a spirit but the 'ben Elohyim' were physical beings. 3 angels ate a meal with Abraham. 2 of those angels visited Lot in Sodom where men tried to grab them for sexual purposes. Jacob wrestled with an angel and dislocated his hip. The angels of Gen 6 took wives and fathered children. That seems pretty physical to me.

 

[Frogster]

We all know Job eventually came out, but look how Paul refers to Job in his "unvictorious" condition, as an example for us also.


1 Tim 1:7 for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world.

 

[spitoutthekoolaid]

I have to disagree with this statement. First off 'angels' are messengers so they can be a spirit but the 'ben Elohyim' were physical beings. 3 angels ate a meal with Abraham. 2 of those angels visited Lot in Sodom where men tried to grab them for sexual purposes. Jacob wrestled with an angel and dislocated his hip. The angels of Gen 6 took wives and fathered children. That seems pretty physical to me.

I don't see where those angels were "trapped" in the flesh. In other words, they were physical ... but I don't think they were "bound" to it as humans are.

In other words, apart from the spirit, the flesh (for humans) is our means of experiencing the world, and interacting with it, *primarily*. If we are blind and deaf spiritually, we can still see, and hear, physically, through our flesh.

The angels who were physical beings, were spirit primarily, and flesh secondarily. In other words, I don't see where they were bound to the flesh primarily. So I wasn't saying that specific angels did not have physical bodies, only that they weren't primarily bound to them, in the fashion human beings are. I was pointing out that even with this disadvantage to us, we are still capable of choosing God over the flesh, where as those who had a "clear choice", between the two, still chose otherwise.


* On a side note ... and somewhat in league with my question/post in another thread (which I can't link to yet because of my post count), I have experienced some of the types of "spirits" your own accounts attest to, and the discernment of them spiritually as opposed to "physically" (vision, word of knowledge, revelation, speaking though other people, by faith, etc). But I've also seen physical manifestations, outside of my own mind/body/etcc, and if I had to link them to scriptural counterparts, I would say that I've seen something like "a spirit falling from heaven like lightening", or an "inapproachable light" and the effect it had on the environment, as well as translation (teleporting in other words), disease caused by a "spirit", poltergeist type of phenomena (don't know the scriptural counterpart), as well as physical beings who vanished in front of me after interacting with me, even in the presence of other witnesses. One being, I have seen at least twice, over the span of a decade. I'm trying to give "just the facts here" of course, so I'm describing this in an impersonal way, but they appeared physical, like people. In a crowd, the one I've seen twice was tall and stood out in that regard. I would say he was perhaps an "angel", although that seems lacking as a label ... and also because of the name he gave ... and the circumstances surrounding the encounters, and the manner in which he vanished, for example. I don't know what "type" of "angel", or spiritual being he was ... I'm trying to describe it impersonally and without labels. It was through a revelatory nature, that I understood him to be "non-human" and an "angel", so to speak. A parallel experience might be a mixture between Abraham's interaction with the three visitors, and Gideon's interaction to a degree. Thus, in my own personal experience, I can see where certain types of angels would have had physical bodies, but not be limited spiritually in the same ways we are, or how their spirits may operate in and out of those bodies.

 

[spitoutthekoolaid]

It was Yah that brought Job to HaSatan's attention. There were no grounds to attack Job. Yah allowed HaSatan to test Job to see if he would fall into sin when Yah removed His hedge of protection.

IMO there was a reason to have HaSatan focused on Job. The attacks HaSatan sent on Job spilled over onto Egypt and Yah used Moses to free the children of Israel with the plagues HaSatan sent onto Job. Many of the references in Job line up with events that took place at the time of Exodus. Even one of Job's friends was Eliphaz, the firstborn son of Essau when he was an old man. The timing fits.

Yah allowed HaSatan to attack an innocent man to free a great multitude. This is a type and shadow of the messiah that suffered so that others would be set free. Did Yeshua have grounds for HaSatan to attack and kill Him?

Now HaSatan sent many attacks against Job. Not only the loss of his material wealth, children and health but those attacks continued through his wife and his 'so-called' friends. They operated as agents of HaSatan.

Job's three friends were pagans preaching pagan doctrines at Job. You have to go back to the Hebrew and also understand all the pagan references to see this. Many of the times in you translated that say 'God' do so in error. The 3 friends of Job followed different gods. They even used different Hebrew words. Eliphaz also makes it very clear he is a 'sun god' worshiper. He is attempting to get Job to bow down to HaSatan to get the attacks to stop which is HaSatan's goal. Eliphaz preaches Babylonian sun god doctrine to Job. Eliphaz was also a mixture of paganism and knowledge of Yah. His father was Hebrew but his mother was a Canaanite. His religion is a mixture.

Interesting and revealing "bigger picture" purposes.

 

[JimB]

SO - another "It was all Job's fault" thread.

Job had TWO issues that God was after - euphemistically referred to as: "Leviathan" (human pride), and "Behemoth" (a reliance on human Strength). The exercise is all about God bringing Job face to face with His issues, leading Job to Repent of them, and grow in the Lord.

And God "applied satan" with surgical precision to accomplish the ministry.

I Suspect that Job is a prototypical presentation of how God STILL deals with his people.

I find it comforting to KNOW that the enemy can't get to me (that pesky hedge God has around us) unless Father raises it in ways that will result (eventually) in my GOOD - i.e. make me more like Jesus.

EXCELLENT, Bob. Thanx.

 

[Yahu]

I don't see where those angels were "trapped" in the flesh. In other words, they were physical ... but I don't think they were "bound" to it as humans are.

Actually humans are not as 'bound' as you make think. Astral projection is a technique of the occult. It is the ability of the spirit leaving the physical body. We also have John caught up to heaven in the spirit after being called up. I see no reason that angels can't leave their eternal bodies in heaven when they appear on earth in spirit only.

A 'messenger' can be physical or spiritual.

Now I have had dealings with a coven that did know how to do astral projection. I was in a conflict against them in California and they continued their attacks against me after I separated from the military and returned home to Ga. I heard about events through a friend that one of the coven members went to for salvation. She had been apart of those attacks against me but got so scared when an angel appeared in my room and drove them off. All I had done was sense a spiritual attack and started speaking in tongues. That had summoned an angel that severed their connection back to their bodies so they had to flee back or risk the death of their bodies.

We have both physical and spiritual bodies. They can be separated. As a matter of fact, that is what happens at death but it doesn't require death to occur.

 

[Yahu]

Interesting and revealing "bigger picture" purposes.

Thanks. The ancient paganism is one of my major areas of study. I have been working on a commentary of Job. It is full of pagan references by Job's 'friends'.

Basically the argument between Job and his friends is over who and want is God. They try to get Job to bow to their gods so the attacks will stop. Of course Job refuses. Eliphaz tells Job that 'god' traverses the sky but can't see through dark clouds so do his sinning at night so god doesn't see it. Of course Job responds that Yah sees all.

In Job, HaSatan is equated with the ancient pagan sun god with numberous references.

In Job you get references to fire falling, boils, darkness and even the fall of mana later. I have yet to see another commentary that picks up on the pagan references or the timing of events lining up with Exodus. Job calls Eliphaz the Temanite (from Teman) while Esau's eldest son was Eliphaz whose eldest son was Teman. It was common for the father to live with his eldest son in old age because the eldest got the double portion to maintain his parents in old age. It was also common to name the city after that eldest son.

Job was also probably Jobab of the genealogies. Jobab means 'father Job'. Jobab was from a different branch of the Hebrew line, ie descent from Eber.

 

[spitoutthekoolaid]

Actually humans are not as 'bound' as you make think. Astral projection is a technique of the occult. It is the ability of the spirit leaving the physical body. We also have John caught up to heaven in the spirit after being called up. I see no reason that angels can't leave their eternal bodies in heaven when they appear on earth in spirit only.

A 'messenger' can be physical or spiritual.

Now I have had dealings with a coven that did know how to do astral projection. I was in a conflict against them in California and they continued their attacks against me after I separated from the military and returned home to Ga. I heard about events through a friend that one of the coven members went to for salvation. She had been apart of those attacks against me but got so scared when an angel appeared in my room and drove them off. All I had done was sense a spiritual attack and started speaking in tongues. That had summoned an angel that severed their connection back to their bodies so they had to flee back or risk the death of their bodies.

We have both physical and spiritual bodies. They can be separated. As a matter of fact, that is what happens at death but it doesn't require death to occur.

This is where I'm a bit limited in personal experience, concerning human spirits leaving their bodies, and why I'm still making some of the assumptions I'm making.

I dealt with a walk-in who was worshipping ancient "mythical" Celtic beings, and she attempted astral projection on me. She failed, however I was warned in advance of her attempt and testified against her with knowledge about her that showed I had received actual knowledge concerning her, where as hers had been deceptive and thwarted. She did manage to "send" the spirits she worshipped and accepted walk-in style my direction, from 1500 miles away, and they possessed and influenced a group of complete strangers who approached me, out in the public at random, and attempted to sway me over to their side, trying to prove to me their power.

I have a lot of other experiences like this ... and interestingly enough ... while I have never experienced "astral projection" that I'm aware of, nor have I witnessed someone successfully do it, even when they could exhibit spiritual power via other means ... I have been told, by those I was dealing with on spiritual levels, that I myself have appeared before them lol. I shouldn't look at it jokingly, but I was unaware that I could "doppelganger" myself, so to speak. It could have been an evil spirit posing as me in their perspective, of course. Because I have known people whom I trust, that DO see "ethereal" beings. One in particular, who is an atheist believe it or not, frequently sees a wispy ethereal "little girl" who speaks about historical facts and other information that my friend can verify separately. So she accepts to a degree the "supernatural", but doesn't believe there is a "God", or supreme being/Creator.

So I'm not saying the physical flesh of a human can't be transformed via the Spirit. Obviously it can, i.e. "miracles" for example, or translation of human beings, etc.

And I understand that the human spirit isn't strictly limited to the human body, and of course John is a great example. However I might argue that those who are dead inside, or "soulless" *, or are not written in the Book of Life, have as their primary method of experience the flesh first, the spiritual second. I'm looking at it as a "free choice" so to speak. Not that it can't be done, but how free a person/angel is to CHOOSE one or the other, as they wish. A person may be able to choose the spirit, but they are not free to choose it in the ways they always would like, for example, due to fleshly limitations.

Thus, my experience is limited, because I have not experienced astral projection with my own self, or seen another do it successfully. I believe it's possible, regardless of whether you are of Christ or not ... I just, see it darkly because I have no reference point of personally witnessing it or performing it (my own spirit leaving my body, or seeing the spirit of another person who has left their body). Although again, I've known people who claim they can do it, and it was tried on me in an attack. This is one reason I actually value practical, first hand accounts ... and not just scriptural definitions alone.



* I'm a bit torn on the implications of someone being "soulless" and have limited experience with it, however, it's something I'm still understanding and learning about, so I can't fully define the implications, only what I've witnessed, and why I even term it thus.

 

[spitoutthekoolaid]

Thanks. <snip>

Your welcome dude ! lol.

And concerning some of my previous posts, and your responses ... I can see a derail coming on, which probably isn't necessary, partially because you'd be "preaching to the choir" concerning angels, spirits, humans and their spiritual ability, etc.

However I'm seeing what I think is an issue in the point I was trying to make, verses some of your comments. And this might be worth a derail ... as it's a crux to my point:

I'm torn as to whether or not some, if not all of the spiritual beings (humans aside for the sake of this point), were ever flesh *first* in the way they experienced existence. In other words, the bnai elohim for example .... spirit first, or flesh first upon their creation ? Princes, seraphim, cherubim, Watchers, etc ... was there ever a time they went from flesh, to spirit, and back to flesh as their main method of "coming into existence" ? I'm also not talking about Nephilim and such. I'm talking about their "parents" ...

And I'm also not talking about God having them as spirit before he formed them, for example. I'm talking about when they first realized they were in "existence", in the same way that humans might ...

 

[Optimax]

The thread is about Job.

Please stay on topic.

thanks

 

[Yahu]

The thread is about Job.

Please stay on topic.

thanks

Actually it is kind of on topic. Job answers several spiritual questions. Job references ghost that inhabit the waters.

 

[spitoutthekoolaid]

The thread is about Job.

Please stay on topic.

thanks

No worries.

I reposted it in the "Demons?" thread, for those who might want to comment.