Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

[JimfromOhio]

It's the "zero void". Take any multiplication problem, no matter how long, and insert multiplying by zero anywhere in it and it voids the whole problem. The answer will always be zero from then on. It's the same with "but' or "however". I can agree with you and commend you for your astute observation, but if I put a "but" in it......

1 Corinthians 8:9
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.

Hebrews 12:11
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Hebrews 12:10
Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I obviously believe that? I've never even suggested such a thing.

We all know what happens when we assume don't we?

Actually... She and I have been reading the same thing. You may intend one way but we saw your words differently. Communication is the problem however, I don't think its a communication problem here... its more of an agenda.

 

[probinson]

1 Corinthians 8:9
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.

Hebrews 12:11
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Hebrews 12:10
Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.

The gift of irrelevance in operation again.

 

[JimfromOhio]

The gift of irrelevance in operation again.

Yep... on both ends of imperfect Christians

 

[lismore]

I am being more than a conqueror by not letting my illness conquer me, but serving and trusting the Lord through it and in spite of it. You obviously feel that you can be more than a conqueror only by not having an illness. Is there a right answer? (Depends on who you ask, I suppose.)

Jesus has conquered death, not because he avoided it, but because he went through it and came out the other side.

Thats right.

Being a conqueror is not having it all easy, but coming through the other end with God's help and coming through a stronger person.

Psalm 34:19 NIV
A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all.

A lot of prosperity teachers (even all?) live in rich countries and are rich anyway. Money can buy healthcare. So who is overcoming what and where? God doesnt just bless folks in rich socieities!

 

[Strong in Him]

You must be kidding.

SO??

Jesus showed us the Father. That Jesus healed everyone who approached Him in faith shows that the will of the Father is healing.

That's pretty significant.

Whether we have a full understanding of what it means or not, the fact is Jesus healed everyone that came to Him in faith. That's not even a debatable issue. Unless you can find me proof of an instance where someone approached Jesus in faith and He did not heal them.

Yes but what I mean by that is; how does that fact apply to me? If I say to you that I haven't been healed from an illness, and you reply "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith", what are you saying? Are you tossing out a factual statement to increase my Bible knowledge, or is this statement supposed to have some bearing upon, and relevance to, my situation? Because the only two possibilities I can see are; "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith; you haven't been healed, have you really come to him?" Or "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith; you haven't been healed, have you come in faith?"

 

[Strong in Him]

Actually... She and I have been reading the same thing. You may intend one way but we saw your words differently. Communication is the problem however, I don't think its a communication problem here... its more of an agenda.

Jim's right. I wasn't assuming, that's how I read your statement;

Feel free to suffer.

I will be more than a conqueror.

and the fact that you said that when illness comes you take authority and send it away again. I linked these two statements - being more than a conqueror means getting rid of illness. Maybe I was wrong to do so and you don't believe that at all.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Yes but what I mean by that is; how does that fact apply to me? If I say to you that I haven't been healed from an illness, and you reply "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith", what are you saying? Are you tossing out a factual statement to increase my Bible knowledge, or is this statement supposed to have some bearing upon, and relevance to, my situation? Because the only two possibilities I can see are; "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith; you haven't been healed, have you really come to him?" Or "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith; you haven't been healed, have you come in faith?"

Why is that a problem? If you have never been given faith to be healed, why should that be a problem?


If you are in offense about your disease and then try to rationalize it away by saying God did it to you, then yes, that would be a problem, but God does not hold one responsible for that which he or she does not have.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Why is that a problem? If you have never been given faith to be healed, why should that be a problem?


If you are in offense about your disease and then try to rationalize it away by saying God did it to you, then yes, that would be a problem, but God does not hold one responsible for that which he or she does not have.

This sounds like to me that this is more judgemental of those who are not healed. But hey, I am on the receiving end of the communication. I am interpreting what you are trying to say.

 

[probinson]

I'm not quoting any post purposely because I want to make sure that it's clear that I am speaking only of me.

I will readily admit that there are times in my life where I was not healed because of my lack of faith. It does not make me ashamed to admit this. It does not condemn me. It is a simple fact.

There are times when I suffered, needlessly, with an illness. It was not until I began to believe that I was healed. It's tough when we live in a world where even Christians will attribute sickness and suffering to our heavenly Father. We are so used to seeing "failure" when it comes to healing that we don't even expect anything anymore.

I have learned that much like salvation, you must confess with your mouth what you believe in your heart regarding healing. When I do this, healing comes, nearly instantaneously. Neither myself, my wife, nor my son has been seriously ill for the last 5 years. We all are in agreement; sickness is bad. So when sickness tries to attach itself to one of us, we stand against it in agreement. We know what Jesus did for us and we appropriate the authority that has been given to us.

I have seen the healing power of God in my life repeatedly and on a daily basis. You will not convince me otherwise.

The "agenda" that I have, according to JimO (who seems to think he's figured me all out), is that all would come to the realization that God's healing power is available to every believer. Why that's a bad thing I'll never understand.

It's not a gamble when I pray. It's an assurity.

Lest someone should say I'm boasting, I know that without Jesus I can do nothing. It is not I, but Christ in me. Further, ANYONE that will choose to believe has the same ability. It is not something that is exclusive to me or a select few. ANYONE who chooses to believe.

 

[Strong in Him]

Why is that a problem? If you have never been given faith to be healed, why should that be a problem?

So in other words, when people make that statement, what they're really saying is "you're not healed because you haven't been given the faith to be healed"? Well as it is God who gives faith, if he has not given it to a particular person is that because he doesn't want them to be healed - at that particular point?

Presumably not; I would suspect that they are really saying "you haven't received the faith to be healed". Which comes back to the original point, (unspoken) condemnation of the sick person.

 

[TreeOfLife]

So in other words, when people make that statement, what they're really saying is "you're not healed because you haven't been given the faith to be healed"? Well as it is God who gives faith, if he has not given it to a particular person is that because he doesn't want them to be healed - at that particular point?

Presumably not; I would suspect that they are really saying "you haven't received the faith to be healed". Which comes back to the original point, (unspoken) condemnation of the sick person.

You should have addressed my whole post, but that wouldn't suit your agenda would it?

There was no condemnation at all in it. It was designed to comfort and to speak logically and lovingly at the problem. I greatly regret that you refuse to see that. I was hoping for a better response.

 

[TreeOfLife]

This sounds like to me that this is more judgemental of those who are not healed. But hey, I am on the receiving end of the communication. I am interpreting what you are trying to say.

Can we at least discuss this? There was absolutely NO judgement nor condemnation in that post. Merely an effort to get down to some basics. (Keep in mind that it is a given in my mind that we are all Christians. What I posted wouldn't apply in anyway to someone who was not yet saved. )

What are you afraid of? Faith for anything is not merely "mental assent". It is not really possible for a Christian to fail in this area. We can get into offense about things, but no worries, God is greater than even our offenses. He can fix that too.

 

[probinson]

Presumably not; I would suspect that they are really saying "you haven't received the faith to be healed". Which comes back to the original point, (unspoken) condemnation of the sick person.

This is absolutely mind boggling to me. How in the world is this viewed as condemnation?

Condemnation offers no hope. Conviction shows you a problem and tells you how to fix it.

I've discovered something here; condemnation is in the eye of the beholder.

There are times when my wife has told me, Pete, you need to stop messing around and start believing that you're healed. Why? Was she trying to "condemn" me? Absolutely not! She told me to help me. I do the same for her. I'm quite grateful when she does. Sometimes, we all need that little wake up call.

How that can be viewed as condemnation is beyond my realm of comprehension.

 

[Strong in Him]

You should have addressed my whole post, but that wouldn't suit your agenda would it?

What agenda?

There was no condemnation at all in it. It was designed to comfort and to speak logically and lovingly at the problem. I greatly regret that you refuse to see that. I was hoping for a better response.

The response I posted was the inference from your previous post. At least, that's how I read it.

I have been saying that if someone says "I have not been healed of my illness" and the reply is "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith" that can make the sufferer feel guilty, because the implication is "well you can't have come to him in faith." I also asked what
other reason there could be for saying this, or what else a person might mean by it.

If you're saying that if someone said to you that they have not been healed of an illness, and you would answer them by saying "God hasn't given you the faith to be healed", then I think I would actually find that to be more of a comfort. But it still raises, for me anyway, the question of why God hasn't given the faith for healing. And what answers are there other than "the time is not yet right", or "he doesn't yet want you to have it"?

Believe it or not I'm asking genuine questions and trying to understand your position. But I've found that when I post questions in threads on healing that are too difficult, they either get ignored, or I get accused of interpreting everything in the light of my own (sometimes considered heretical) beliefs.

 

[JimfromOhio]

What agenda?



The response I posted was the inference from your previous post. At least, that's how I read it.

I have been saying that if someone says "I have not been healed of my illness" and the reply is "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith" that can make the sufferer feel guilty, because the implication is "well you can't have come to him in faith." I also asked what
other reason there could be for saying this, or what else a person might mean by it.

If you're saying that if someone said to you that they have not been healed of an illness, and you would answer them by saying "God hasn't given you the faith to be healed", then I think I would actually find that to be more of a comfort. But it still raises, for me anyway, the question of why God hasn't given the faith for healing. And what answers are there other than "the time is not yet right", or "he doesn't yet want you to have it"?

Believe it or not I'm asking genuine questions and trying to understand your position. But I've found that when I post questions in threads on healing that are too difficult, they either get ignored, or I get accused of interpreting everything in the light of my own (sometimes considered heretical) beliefs.

I noticed similar phrases in this thread and another thread. Heresies !!~!

 

[probinson]

I noticed similar phrases in this thread and another thread. Heresies !!~!

Woo! Heresy! Them's fighting words.

I think you need to step away from the monitor before you lose your religion.

 

[Strong in Him]

This is absolutely mind boggling to me. How in the world is this viewed as condemnation?

Ok so maybe condemnation is a bit strong, but implying that a person hasn't got enough faith, or making a statement that seems to imply this, often comes across as a criticism and the sufferer just feels guilty. Call us oversensitive if you like, but this is how it often is. I have experienced, heard and read about it.

If you are starting from the premise that healing is manifested by positive confession, denying your symptoms the right to exist, and believing that you already have healing, then saying to someone "come on, just rember that you are already healed and exercise a bit more faith", is a valid, even encouraging, thing to say. Most of us do not start from this position, either because we have not been taught it or cannot accept it. People that I know pray for healing, often many times, wonder why a god of love isn't answerting their prayers, and sometimes get told in reply "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith." Maybe it's meant as encouragement, and this fact is blatantly obvious to the one who says it. But that's not how it's received.

 

[probinson]

Ok so maybe condemnation is a bit strong, but implying that a person hasn't got enough faith, or making a statement that seems to imply this, often comes across as a criticism and the sufferer just feels guilty. Call us oversensitive if you like, but this is how it often is. I have experienced, heard and read about it.

Hmmm. Criticism. Perhaps. But it's a constructive criticism with the motive to help a person.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Woo! Heresy! Them's fighting words.

I think you need to step away from the monitor before you lose your religion.

Religion is a man-made word. To the very religious biblical experts of His day Jesus said, "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered" ( Luke 11:52). Religionists take away "the key of knowledge" by distracting people from the Word of God.

Rather than leading people to God, religionists shift the focus to themselves and their object of FAITH. Religionists are those who trust their FAITH and forget everything else.