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Jews 4 Jesus criticize Vatican

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Yeshua HaDerekh, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    The septuagint was written on the command of Alexander the Great, for the Greeks. It was never meant to be "the Bible". It was much like an English Quran is today. It's not a real Quran, it doesn't really count, but it can give the non-believers an idea of what it's about.

    Basically, the Septuagint existed to prove to the Greeks (and later the Romans) that the Jews were not "plotting against the empire".
     
  2. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    I guess you would say the same of the NT? The English translation is really not the NT if it is not in the original Greek?
     
  3. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    "Oiginal Greek" of any Jewish text is arguable.
     
  4. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    The NT was originally in Greek. So any English text of that Greek text is arguable?
     
  5. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    The idea that the greek is the original is definitely debateable. Yes, I believe the Greek -to English is lacking, and obviously christian interpretations are arguable.

    Im not sure if this is relevant to the topic.
     
  6. Hoshiyya

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    To translate is to interpret, so all translation results in interpretation. Even if you read it in the original language, you have to interpret its meaning.
     
  7. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    It is not an idea. It is fact. There "may" have been a Matthew in Hebrew. The Peshitta in Aramaic/Syriac.
     
  8. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    What about if Greeks translated it into English like Jews did for Greek in the Septuagint?
     
  9. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    Its a fact? You've seen the originals-or know someone who has? It is debateable . Alot of Modern scholarship attests to the probability of the texts being originally transmitted in Hebrew.

    For refrence the "Biblical archeological record"(BAR). A study of the "early church fathers" themselves- they admit Matthew was originally transmitted in Hebrew.... Isn't Matthew "NT"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
  10. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    You are going to argue that the original NT was not written in Koine Greek LOL?!?!? Uh, OK...knock yourself out!
    It was casually mentioned that there was a tradition that the original Matthew "may" have been in Aramaic. Nobody knows if it was originally in Hebrew or translated from the Greek or if it ever existed.

    Around 180 AD Irenaeus of Lyons wrote that Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect. (Against Heresies 3:1:1)

    Fifty years earlier Papias, bishop of Hieropolis in Asia Minor, wrote that Matthew compiled the sayings of the Lord in the Aramaic language, and everyone translated them as well as he could. Explanation of the Sayings of the Lord (cited by Eusebius in History of the Church 3:39).

    Sometime after 244 AD Origen wrote, "Among the four Gospels, which are the only indisputable ones in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was written by Matthew, who was once a publican, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, and it was prepared for the converts from Judaism and published in the Hebrew language." Commentaries on Matthew (cited by Eusebius in History of the Church 6:25)

    Eusebius himself declared that Matthew had begun by preaching to the Hebrews, and when he made up his mind to go to others too, he committed his own Gospel to writing in his native tongue (Aramaic) History of the Church 3:24
     
  11. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    No thanks, I'll remain conscious. Again, the opinion(you declare as fact) of the "NT" being originally Greek is, in fact....debateable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
  12. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Anything is debatable, even when the evidence is against you...and in this case it is.
     
  13. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    I think it depends on whether we are assuming they are doing so under the inspiration of the holy spirit, or not. If not, their familiarity with English could be a factor. I also think there may be certain words that are meant to carry certain ideas that are better communicated in one language than another. Not to mention that by translating we miss the rhymes, alliterative word choices, and such things. You can't do gematria in English, for example. So parts of it are lost by translating it, as is the case with any other text.

    Poet Haim Nachman Bialik is credited with saying: "Reading the Bible in translation is like kissing your new bride through a veil." I'm not entirely sure what he means by that, but he probably means that part of the meaning is lost, which I think is true.
     
  14. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    I mean no offense- but, by stating something is fact, generally means its not debateable. No?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
  15. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    I definitely agree with you regarding Gematria
     
  16. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Anyone can debate anything...I am not debating it, you are....no offense
     
  17. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    I think it necessary to clarify. Facts are indesputable. The fact is-the idea of the "NT" being originally greek is disputable. My disagreement with you is your claim that the original being greek , is indesputable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
  18. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Like I said, maybe Matthew as originally in Aramaic, but the original NT was written in Koine Greek. Provide me evidence to debate with. All the manuscripts were in Greek. Like I said, anything is debatable, but where is your eveidence (actual manuscripts, etc)
     
  19. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    This is the problem. "Original" manuscripts are non existant, wether greek, aramaic or Hebrew. There is no irrefutable evidence that lends to proof of your statement, my point is not to provide you with evidence-because there is no definative proof to either the originality of the greek-or a semitic text. Therefore your statement in regards to the original being greek-indisputably, simply is not based on fact.

    I could give you historical, cultural and linguist contexts of recent (50 years) archeological finds resulting in the language of the Jews being predominantly Hebrew during the 2nd Temple era, as opposed to older christian scholarship which considered Hebrew being a close to dead language....But, I get the feeling-these facts, aren't something you would be inclined to process. So I will refrain.
     
  20. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    In that case one could say it was in Egyptian or whatever, but the current evidence points to it being Greek. You might use the DSS as evidence? The Peshitta? I find it strange that there are NO NT manuscripts in Aramaic or Hebrew. If all the originals were in Aramaic/Hebrew and not Greek, where did they all go? They should be all over the place, no? The earliest is 1st century Mark I believe, although some say the first book written was probably 1 Thessalonians, written around 50 AD.
     
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