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Jews 4 Jesus criticize Vatican

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Yeshua HaDerekh, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    A few NT translations substitue "proclaimers of the Good News" in place of "evangelists." The Apostles did not shy away from proclaiming the Good News as led by the Spirit. Do you find that Isaiah 53 seems to be as a good of an introduction as any when sharing with a friend that has asked about Yeshua possibly being the Moshiach.

    Ephesians 4:11 CJB
    Furthermore, he gave some people as emissaries, some as prophets, some as proclaimers of the Good News, and some as shepherds and teachers.
     
  2. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    In terms of discussing with my Jewish friends/ rabbi why I believe Yeshua to be Moshiach. I generally point to Daniel chapter 12. I need to emphasize, our discussions are not with the intent of pushing my belief on anyone. Conversations regarding Yeshua are always brought up by others.
     
  3. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    So you are or are not converting to rabbinical Judaism?
     
  4. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    We're staying on the journey. Although, unwilling to deny Moshiach. Dont feel the need to convert, after all we're in a community we love, living as Jews.....Beizrat HaShem.

    what do you mean by "rabbinical Judaism"? Its the only Judaism unless you consider the karites a "judaism"(which I dont have a problem with btw). Most messianics I've been affiliated with in the past are christian based-in terms of theological interpretation whether they know it or not). If there was a truly Judaism oriented Messianic shul....I'd be interested.
     
  5. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Judaism changed after 70 AD as you know. Yes there are Karaites, Orthodox, Reformed, etc. I refer to it as Rabbinic because it follows the Rabbis and not Yeshua.
     
  6. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    A "truly Judaism oriented Messianic shul...." that believes Yeshua is Moshiach is generally referred to as "Messianic Judaism." One way you can tell if a MJ congregation comes as close to a "truly Judaiam oriented Messianic shul" is if it's members hold to the legal stipulations, that is, as many of the 613 rules and regulations of the Sinai Covenant that are still applicable as interpreted by the Oral Torah of Rabbinical Judaism. However, Rabbinical Judaism in its "truest form" rejects Moshiach Yeshua as the Passover Lamb of God (Isaiah 53).

    Whereas, both Messianic Judaism and Christianity believe that Moshiach Yeshua / Christ Jesus is the Passover Lamb of God (Isaish 53). When Paul speaks about the Law ... "the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2) some of us believe he is not so much referring specifically to the Ten Commandments, but moreso to all of the additional legal stipulations of the Sinai Covemant that were in operation until the New Covenant (Hebrew 8:13). There are varying degrees of legalistic Messianic Judaism congregations. Some do hold to as many as posssible of the legal stipulations of the Oral Commandments of Rabbinical Judaism (613) as being essential to what one might call a "truly Judaism oriented Messianic shul."
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
  7. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    It's come full circle, now is the time G-d will act.
     
  8. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    I understand your perspective.
    Im familiar. Although disagree with the interpretations you've provided regarding "the law of sin and death". Nonetheless, I find the idea that if one chooses to observe rabbinical or talmudic tradition, they are "following the rabbis" - ( no offense)a bit short-sighted. As far as legalism, as a follower of Yeshua-I don't suggest or believe anyones choice to live in the boundries of a legal code (in this case Judaism) is reflective upon their standing before G-d.
     
  9. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    I understand your perspective. The 613 mitzvot are simply the number of commandments compiled by the rabbis from the 1st 5 books of Moshe.....To imply they're "legalistic" is unfortunate. All the same, The number of rulings regarding how to perform the above said mitzvot from the perspective of the rabbinate are quite extensive, and sometimes, yes, legalistic.
     
  10. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    Not sure about the yeat 70. I'm aware of year 135 ish? During the bar kochba revolt -most Yeshua followers , practicing Judaism were put out of the community due to their unwillingness to take part in the revolt under bar kochba who Rav Akiva declared to be the Moschiach.

    The true changes that brought us modern Judaism occured at Yavneh.
     
  11. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Maybe I should have said at the resurrection of Yeshua or maybe at Shavuot 50 days later? I was suggesting 70 AD since after that, there was no Temple?
     
  12. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    Ah, yes. I'm suggesting it was at Yavneh when the rabbinate consolidated , began codifying and consolidating authority -they found it necessary to preserve the tradition due to Jews being scattered and without a Temple.
     
  13. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Wondering how you feel regarding the Septuagint (written before Yeshua's birth and used by many Jews at the time but latter rejected by the Rabbis) and the Masoretic text (accepted by the Rabbis)?
     
  14. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I have wondered about that too... why did the Septuagint move from accepted to rejected and the Masoretic text being accepted by the Rabbis?
     
  15. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    Never studied it, didn't think it was relevant to my interest....maybe I should ask you.

    From my unlearned perspective, I would imagine the Septuagint-being a greek translation of the Hebrew could potentially have some issues? Dunno.
     
  16. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Your previous statement ... "If there was a truly Judaism oriented Messianic shul....I'd be interested" implies that the Judaism oriented Messianic shuls to which you are familiar stress rabbinical or talmudic traditon first and foremost when it comes to establishing a meaningful relationship with G-d. Is it your belief that "a truly Judaism oriented Messianic shul..." would instead stress ones relationship with Yeshua first and foremost followed by rabbinical or talmudic traditions? What is your definition of "a truly Judaism oriented Messianic shul...." ?

    Such a statement is not all that different from some Christian seekers who have expressed somewhat of the same comment ... "If there was a truly oriented Christian Church....I'd be interested." In a way such comments really aren't all that different from Adam putting the onus on Eve. Adam's transgression and later Israel's many transgressions suggests that even with "a truly oriented synagogue" that mankind's best choice for seeking Truth and Life is one's spiritual acceptance of Moshiach Yeshua as LORD and Saviour.
    John 14:6 CJB
    Yeshua said, “I AM the Way — and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me.

    Concerning the "law of sin and death" (with respect to any transgression/act of disobedience) first began with Adam and Eve. The only way the Israelites knew they were being disobedient/transgressing/sinning (with the result being death) was not before, but after God established the "laws" in the Sinai Covenant, which when transgressed resulted in death.
     
  17. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    Not sure if I want to spend the time trying to answer all your points. When I spoke of a truly Judaism oriented messianic shul, that I'd be intersted in- yea, for me a talmudic traditional community, in which " rabbinic" Judaism is held to in light of Moshiach Yeshua. I understand halachic issues revolving around that idea makes it impossible.

    One of the primary christian errors is that the "law"/Torah-(as the case in your point), is abolished under the brit chadasha. And we no longer need to concern ourselves with it. For the consideration of my tired fingers typing away...transgressing the Torah is the very definition given by the brit chadasha for sin.

    I'm not wasting my time on the idea that the Israelites didnt know what sin was until the revelation at Sinai. Maybe we can talk about that later?
    As far as the "law of sin and death", quite simply is the penalty for sin is death, as stated in the Torah. Thank G-d for Yeshua. The obvious question is -should we continue in sin, knowing we've had the penalty taken care of, at great cost? As Rabbi Shaul states"G-d forbid".

    As far as traditions? Traditions are good! But, as a believer in Yeshua- first be grounded in Torah.
     
  18. 613jono

    613jono Member

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  19. Truthfrees

    Truthfrees Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Don't you mean Daniel 7 and Daniel 9?

    I couldn't find anything clearly Messianic in Daniel 12.
     
  20. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    Yes, sorry. Ch 9.
     
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