Jewish end of days timeline

[Interplanner]

hOw about sticking with what the NT makes clear enough from JEremiah in the letter to the HEbrews and leaving the rest of this labyrinth alone? Too mere? Christianity's gospel is mere, if you haven't found out by now.

 

[dfw69]

Maybe as one of the two witnesses. But not reincarnated.



Jesus coming forth from the Father goes back to when God decided to create. Before time, there was only God, no void because that would mean that God has limits. Within Himself, since He was all there was, God designated space for Creation which has physical limits, since creation itself is not God. Coming forth from Himself, God entered His creation, that point being the throne of God in Heaven, so that his creation might perceive him, as the Lord who Jesus is..... this was eons before entering this world to be born of Mary. God did not divide Himself. He presents Himself in form that his creation can perceive Him.

That's what Jesus meant by saying he was always with the Father. It goes back to before anything existed, other than God.

Outside the boundaries of creation, only God exists, therefore, no-one can know God on that level, except the Son who is God Himself in perceptible form.

Doug

Is that what he is talking about ?.. Reincarnation ?... A reincarnated Adam and Eve ?

 

[dfw69]

hOw about sticking with what the NT makes clear enough from JEremiah in the letter to the HEbrews and leaving the rest of this labyrinth alone? Too mere? Christianity's gospel is mere, if you haven't found out by now.

 

[Douggg]

Is that what he is talking about ?.. Reincarnation ?... A reincarnated Adam and Eve ?

Well, he has a lot going on in his posts.

From his post #24 in this thread.

"The two witnesses are Adam and Eve reborn in the end
Eve is the Aaron, Joshua, Elijah side
Adam is the Moses, Zerubbabel, David side"

The two witnesses being Adam and Eve reborn is reincarnation, coming back for a second lifetime.

If Moses and Elijah or Enoch are the two witnesses, they will appear back on earth as adults, not reincarnated.

Adam and Eve will not be reincarnated ever. They will have their bodies resurrected to eternal life. Both imo will need God's grace to deal with the impact they had in the garden, when they see the billions of the human race in heaven, and told of them which are not. I love both of them. Satan, I hate.

Doug

 

[dfw69]

Well, he has a lot going on in his posts.

From his post #24 in this thread.

"The two witnesses are Adam and Eve reborn in the end
Eve is the Aaron, Joshua, Elijah side
Adam is the Moses, Zerubbabel, David side"

The two witnesses being Adam and Eve reborn is reincarnation, coming back for a second lifetime.

If Moses and Elijah or Enoch are the two witnesses, they will appear back on earth as adults, not reincarnated.

Adam and Eve will not be reincarnated ever. They will have their bodies resurrected to eternal life. Both imo will need God's grace to deal with the impact they had in the garden, when they see the billions of the human race in heaven, and told of them which are not. I love both of them. Satan, I hate.

Doug

Ah I miss that one..... Yes I agree the resurrection is a physical one as Christ was resurrected in his original body ... But his body was changed.... He can eat and drink...Yet walk through walls and suddenly appear... He could be held and touched ... Yet disappear out of their sight ... He can ascend and descend back and forth to heaven and earth...no doubt the resurrected saints will be able to do the same

 

[Jon Anon]

I disagree.... Even if what you say is true ... Then the two witness may typify a king and priest of the future..though I don't see how zerubbabel can refer to Christ ... Because his name refers to one sown from Babylon ... Christ will not come from Babylon .... Zerubbabel means seed of Babylon

Christ is king forever .. He is Adam ... Or new Adam

His priesthood is a new order ...not sure what all that is .... But believers Jew and gentile in him are called priest and kings with Christ

Eve is symbolic of future queen ... Christ is king... His bride is his queen...and his bride are those citizens that will live with him in new Jerusalem ....which comes after Christ reigns 1000 years....new Jerusalem is Adam (Christ) and eve (believers) as king and queen...

You have 3 Israels in the bible Israel is Gods firstborn. You have Israel the nation that is spoken of in the volume of the book. You have Jesus which is referred to as being called Israel(firstborn) hosea 11:1(When "Israel" was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.) and was fulfilled by Jesus in
Matthew 2:15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Luke 3:
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God....(another firstborn and yet we are to believe Jesus being a firstborn himself would just say "tough luck Adam"..........................Adam is hidden in the whole book just as Jesus was hidden in the book and just as Israel is in the whole book. Adam just hasn't been revealed yet

 

[dfw69]

You have 3 Israels in the bible Israel is Gods firstborn. You have Israel the nation that is spoken of in the volume of the book. You have Jesus which is referred to as being called Israel(firstborn) hosea 11:1(When "Israel" was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.) and was fulfilled by Jesus in
Matthew 2:15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Luke 3:
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God....(another firstborn and yet we are to believe Jesus being a firstborn himself would just say "tough luck Adam"..........................Adam is hidden in the whole book just as Jesus was hidden in the book and just as Israel is in the whole book. Adam just hasn't been revealed yet

You forgot spiritual Israel ..the saints of Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ

Jesus was before all... And is gods true firstborn ....the only begotten son.. Besides the elder shall serve the younger... If Adam was firstborn .... Then it's clear man will serve the messiah

 

[Jon Anon]

Have you done any reading on messiah ben aaron and messiah ben Israel Dead sea scrolls writings. The jews also see these writing as a type of messiah ben joseph and messiah ben david last days moshiach? I believe Jesus fulfilled the suffering servant and will come back as the conquering king because he was able to fulfill the priest and king side because he used the melchelzedek order, otherwise Jesus could not be both priest and king because Jesus was only from the tribe of Judah and you have to be from the tribe of Levi to be a priest and Judah to be a king. The reason the two witnesses have to come is because Moses struck the rock that gave water(representing Jesus) once. And then God told moses to speak to the rock and it will give forth water but moses in his anger toward the people struck the rock 2 more times thus the 2 witnesses come in the end and drink from the cup Jesus drank and are baptized with the baptism Jesus was baptized just as Jesus said was necessary to sit on his left and right in the kingdom.

 

[Jon Anon]

Mark 10:
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

 

[Interplanner]

Christ is a second ADam, in case anyone missed that. I Cor 15. In fact, he is a second of all of us, thank God

 

[Douggg]

you guys areg etting close. If you can think it has to do with bar Cochba, why not John of Gischala in 68, who killed the high priest, and proclaimed himself to be the delivereer?

Inter, John of Gischala would surely be one of those false messiahs that Jesus spoke of. But not "the" Antichrist.

The Jews themselves at their discussion boards say that there have been something like 18 failed messiahs. They use the term "failed" and not false.

so...if a leader came along today and promised Israel safety from its Islamic neighbors, why would anyone think he was decieving them? (I mean anyone familiar with the nT, in which the main work of the messiah is his sacrifice and justification from our sins). MOst of you people who discuss your views here think the function of messiah is to defeat all the neighbors, which this leader would promise, so what is the deception? you can't have it both ways.

The main work of the messiah - as revealed after the resurrection is his sacrifice for the removal of our sins, agreed. But Judaism does not accept that the role of the messiah as being savior from our sins.

In Judaism one of the requirements is that the messiah fight the battles of God in defense of Israel. And it is a legit requirement - which Jesus will fulfill at his second coming.

You might see some sort of peace guarantee ahead of Gog/Magog (pre-70th week). But the 70th week itself, following the destruction of Gog/Magog, will begin with the confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant by the Antichrist perceived Jewish King messiah.

Doug

 

[Jon Anon]

When moses was in the desert there was a rock that gave forth water and God told moses to strike the rock once.
The rock represented Jesus, as Jesus gives living water. Moses struck the rock and it gave forth water. this
is representing Jesus being struck for our sins on the cross. Another day came and God said speak to the rock
and it will give forth water. Instead of speaking to the rock Moses struck the rock 2 more times and because of
this Moses didn't enter the promise land. Jesus didn't need to be sacrificed or struck again so this is the reason
for the two witnesses in the end.
Here is 2 examples of Moses playing the part of God to the people:

Exodus 4:14-16
14 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know
that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in
his heart. 15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.

Exodus 7:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

Now go to Dueteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

verse 15 and 16 Moses is speaking in the place of God saying I will raise up a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy bretheren, like unto me;......so that would be Jesus because Jesus is like God and moses is speaking in the place of God. Divide these verses correctly and you will see this last moshiach or prophet that is to come. The reason God sent Jesus was because the people were afraid when God came like a great fire.

now lets go to verse 17-19:
It starts out moses speaking and saying The Lord said unto me.....so now Moses isn't playing the part of God to the people here Moses is playing the part of a regular man because God is speaking to Moses. Now verse 18 God is still speaking to Moses and God says I will raise up a prophet from among their bretheren, like unto thee(like moses not like God), and I will put my words in his mouth: and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. verse 19 and it shall come to pass, that whosever will not harken
unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.......(This is that last day moshiach)

 

[Douggg]

of course....but this false ressurrection may be just people claiming to be one or the other old testament saints and prophets...i mean how can one determine what moses or elijah looked like?....its a deception...not an actual ressurrection....i believe jesus was refering to a false ressurrection when he says many false prophets shall come in these last days...to decieve that the messianic age has come

But there are no confirmation verses of a false resurrection. A false resurrection does not have to start the false messianic age, just the arrival of the Jewish perceived messiah and Israel's enemies defeated.

so you believe that a false messianic reign comes first before the man of sin comes?..... thats good....your on the right track.....but how will the messianic reign take place?....you have to look to what jewish talmudic rabbis teach and believe how their end of days take place...then you will see clearly....

Yes, the false messianic reign will begin right after Gog/Magog, Israel's muslim enemies destroyed. The little horn arriving in Israel appearing to come to their rescue but late after God already supernaturally destroys Gog/Magog, will lead the Jews to think he is their promised great King Messiah, and that God has prepared the way for him.

The little horn, the prince who shall come will stand on the freed from Muslim control Temple Mount and oversee the commenorative reading of Moses's instructions to go in and possess the land, that the promised land belongs to the Jews. That's what starts the 7 years of the 70th week, and the false messianic age.

Immediately the Jews will begin construction of a tabernacle and altar of minimal requirements to restart the animal sacrifices. The actual day which the sacrifices begin will be 220 days after the commemorative reading.

The sacrifices go on successfully for a while, until nearing the midpart of the 7 years (the confirmation cycle of Deuteronomy 31:10-11) when totally unexpected their perceived King Messiah sells out to Satan, revealing himself as the man of sin. God has him killed for doing so. And it appears to be by foreigners, not Jews (from Ezekiel 28:1-10). The man of sin finds himself in hell, mocked, and God in his disdain for him kicks him out of the grave, bringing him back alive, never to be buried, but cast alive into the lake of fire 3 1/2 years later.

At the point of coming back to life, he is then possessed by the unclean spirit (of Nimrod) ascending out of the bottomless pit. For the remaining 42 months he rules the world in terror, persecutes the Jews who will have rejected him as their messiah for desecrating the temple, claiming to be be God. Possessed by the unclean spirit of Nimrod, which influences his thinking and actions, he as the Antichrist-beast will lead the world in rebellion against God, like from the days of the tower of Babel, for that final 42 months.


Doug

 

[Jon Anon]

But there are no confirmation verses of a false resurrection. A false resurrection does not have to start the false messianic age, just the arrival of the Jewish perceived messiah and Israel's enemies defeated.



Yes, the false messianic reign will begin right after Gog/Magog, Israel's muslim enemies destroyed. The little horn arriving in Israel appearing to come to their rescue but late after God already supernaturally destroys Gog/Magog, will lead the Jews to think he is their promised great King Messiah, and that God has prepared the way for him.

The little horn, the prince who shall come will stand on the freed from Muslim control Temple Mount and oversee the commenorative reading of Moses's instructions to go in and possess the land, that the promised land belongs to the Jews. That's what starts the 7 years of the 70th week, and the false messianic age.

Immediately the Jews will begin construction of a tabernacle and altar of minimal requirements to restart the animal sacrifices. The actual day which the sacrifices begin will be 220 days after the commemorative reading.

The sacrifices go on successfully for a while, until nearing the midpart of the 7 years (the confirmation cycle of Deuteronomy 31:10-11) when totally unexpected their perceived King Messiah sells out to Satan, revealing himself as the man of sin. God has him killed for doing so. And it appears to be by foreigners, not Jews (from Ezekiel 28:1-10). The man of sin finds himself in hell, mocked, and God in his disdain for him kicks him out of the grave, bringing him back alive, never to be buried, but cast alive into the lake of fire 3 1/2 years later.

At the point of coming back to life, he is then possessed by the unclean spirit (of Nimrod) ascending out of the bottomless pit. For the remaining 42 months he rules the world in terror, persecutes the Jews who will have rejected him as their messiah for desecrating the temple, claiming to be be God. Possessed by the unclean spirit of Nimrod, which influences his thinking and actions, he as the Antichrist-beast will lead the world in rebellion against God, like from the days of the tower of Babel, for that final 42 months.


Doug

how do you come up with the 220 days?

 

[dfw69]

But there are no confirmation verses of a false resurrection. A false resurrection does not have to start the false messianic age, just the arrival of the Jewish perceived messiah and Israel's enemies defeated.

i see what you mean...but i believe in the suggestive writtings of the scriptures...if christ is indeed refering to a messianic age then many events will take place within this era....

Yes, the false messianic reign will begin right after Gog/Magog, Israel's muslim enemies destroyed. The little horn arriving in Israel appearing to come to their rescue but late after God already supernaturally destroys Gog/Magog, will lead the Jews to think he is their promised great King Messiah, and that God has prepared the way for him.

here we see things differently...the gog/magog war is after the 1000 year reign of christ when satan is loose one final time and gathers the nations (gog/magog) fire come down from heaven and destroys them

The little horn, the prince who shall come will stand on the freed from Muslim control Temple Mount and oversee the commenorative reading of Moses's instructions to go in and possess the land, that the promised land belongs to the Jews. That's what starts the 7 years of the 70th week, and the false messianic age.

the muslims will have been put down long before the man of sin or final antichrist comes......the muslims are put down during the false messianic age....before the little horn comes....the temple is already built during the false messianic age...10 kingdoms are formed and babylon is rebuilt all during the false messianic age....

Immediately the Jews will begin construction of a tabernacle and altar of minimal requirements to restart the animal sacrifices. The actual day which the sacrifices begin will be 220 days after the commemorative reading.

the messianic city and the temple is already built long before the man of sin comes....

The sacrifices go on successfully for a while, until nearing the midpart of the 7 years (the confirmation cycle of Deuteronomy 31:10-11) when totally unexpected their perceived King Messiah sells out to Satan, revealing himself as the man of sin. God has him killed for doing so. And it appears to be by foreigners, not Jews (from Ezekiel 28:1-10). The man of sin finds himself in hell, mocked, and God in his disdain for him kicks him out of the grave, bringing him back alive, never to be buried, but cast alive into the lake of fire 3 1/2 years later.

At the point of coming back to life, he is then possessed by the unclean spirit (of Nimrod) ascending out of the bottomless pit. For the remaining 42 months he rules the world in terror, persecutes the Jews who will have rejected him as their messiah for desecrating the temple, claiming to be be God. Possessed by the unclean spirit of Nimrod, which influences his thinking and actions, he as the Antichrist-beast will lead the world in rebellion against God, like from the days of the tower of Babel, for that final 42 months.


Doug

we disagree again....when the man of sin comes ...he will be born in babylon and become king of the north....perhaps the northern kingdom of israel...who wars with the king of the south...the southern kingdom of israel....and gets the victory....and begins to revive the greecian empire....conquering syrian egypt turkey greece territories and the remaining of the 10 kingdoms submit to his authority....he wars with mystery babylon...talmud teachings of that false messianic age....and destroys the authority of the false messianic age and seeks to establish his own messianic age and desires to be worship as god...and sets up the golem of himself ....he is never killed and resurrected....

 

[Interplanner]

as for #91, Jesus is not multi-layered. If you think there is something bipolar or dualistic about the Messiah, you've missed the shift that was meant t o be communicated. It doesn't matter what Judaism says anymore, which is not different from what it was saying then! What matters is what the NT 'speaks' to Judaism as such, and there was a bitof reaction, eh? But no conciliatory, smoothing over by the apostles saying 'you know, you guys are right about the rest of it' Why? because he was/is enthroned (acts 2), and he stands to recieve martyrs.

As Schaeffer used to point out, HAndel had the Hallelujah chorus at the correct location: at the accumulated triumph of the resurrection, not at the end of time, in the corresponding locations of times in his oratorio MESSIAH. THat says volumes about Reformation preaching. They preached the enthroned Christ, and thus we have the solid basis of structure and freedom for the West. Todays' subjectivism cannot provide this. neither can futurism.

you show no awareness of HEbrews. no awareness that the land was not even the promise anyway. THe joyful surrender of property to the rebels of Judaism? There is no CHrist in the nT who is going to 'fight' for Israel. The whole business of 'Christ' was totally altered to result in the MEssiah who justifies from sins; there is no way in the universe it is going to be reversed. ARe there heavenly beings in REv singing 'worthy is the Lion who flattened israel's enemies?' Nada, zip, zero.

It was all changed, and that's history. Instead of fighting, JEsus gives clear, practical directions to his followers to save themselves during the Roman delay. THey all left for Pella and the movement carried on.

So in Acts 26, instead of saying jesus is going to come back and fight some day, Paul says the whole thing is already fulfilled, which is also what he preached in Acts 13, but it is more significant in 26 because it's his neck. Of all places, he should have said something there about Jesus the Hero Warrior of JUDaism. No, there is an utterly new mission, plain for all to see in the NT, but you have to have graduated from the old (Gal. 4).

 

[zeke37]

so, u think the fall Feasts of the Lord are fulfilled?
how short sighted can one be

 

[Douggg]

how do you come up with the 220 days?

Go to this post #44, http://www.christianforums.com/t7738197-5/#post62868277

There is a chart I made that shows the 220 days and how I get that number of days.

Doug

 

[Jon Anon]

thanks for the answer