Jesus's Divinity?

[fschmidt]

I am still trying to understand Messianic Judaism. Do all Messianics consider Jesus to be divine, or are there some groups who do not and only consider Jesus to be the Messiah?

 

[yonah_mishael]

If they don't believe in Jesus' divinity, they aren't allowed to talk about it on this forum - so, asking about it is kinda rude.

Having said that, the Creation Seminar 3 video linked in the "Dinosaurs and Dragons" thread claims that the statement that Jesus knew what was in the hearts of a certain group that were questioning him meant that he could read their thoughts and that he was God. That doesn't seem like a proof of divinity in my opinion.

 

[ContraMundum]

If they don't believe in Jesus' divinity, they aren't allowed to talk about it on this forum - so, asking about it is kinda rude.

Having said that, the Creation Seminar 3 video linked in the "Dinosaurs and Dragons" thread claims that the statement that Jesus knew what was in the hearts of a certain group that were questioning him meant that he could read their thoughts and that he was God. That doesn't seem like a proof of divinity in my opinion.

I'd agree with you here. As you no doubt know already, the case for the Divinity of Jesus is based squarely on texts from scripture.

To answer the OP's question, almost every group that self-identifies as "Messianic" is Trinitarian and therefore obviously believes and teaches the Divinity of Jesus. There are of course individuals who self-identify as "Messianic" who are not Trinitarian or have an different view of Jesus to the rest of the Messianics but as far as I know they aren't organised into any federation or denomination of note but mainly live their faith out as individuals more or less connected on the internet.

 

[visionary]

I never liked the term "divinity" as it is Roman rather than Hebrew terminology and therefore rift with theology that is hard to equate with the Hebrew theology.

 

[ContraMundum]

I never liked the term "divinity" as it is Roman rather than Hebrew terminology and therefore rift with theology that is hard to equate with the Hebrew theology.

How would you term it?

 

[visionary]

God in the flesh... echadh

 

[ContraMundum]

God in the flesh... echadh

Sounds reasonable.

 

[ron4shua]

Greetings fellow Saints , when I see truth posted , that can't get any closer to the center of the target I have to say thank you , visionary . This dear Sister is dead on the word "divinity" . Yes I expected nothing less .

I never liked the term "divinity" as it is Roman rather than Hebrew terminology and therefore rift with theology that is hard to equate with the Hebrew theology.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Topic: Divinity

<1,,2305,theiotes>
"divinity," the RV rendering in Rom. 1:20 (AV, "Godhead"), is derived from theios (see DIVINE, A), and is to be distinguished from theotes, in Col. 2:9, "Godhead." In Rom. 1:20 the Apostle "is declaring how much of God may be known from the revelation of Himself which He has made in nature, from those vestiges of Himself which men may everywhere trace in the world around them. Yet it is not the personal God whom any man may learn to know by these aids; He can be known only by the revelation of Himself in His Son; ... But in the second passage (Col. 2:9), Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of Divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the Apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son" (Trench, Syn. ii). Theotes indicates the "Divine" essence of Godhood, the personality of God; theiotes, the attributes of God, His "Divine" nature and properties. See GODHEAD.

Topic: Godhead

* For GODHEAD see DIVINE, DIVINITY

Most newer translation versions refrain from using words not in early MSS Scripture .

 

[.Mikha'el.]

I am still trying to understand Messianic Judaism. Do all Messianics consider Jesus to be divine, or are there some groups who do not and only consider Jesus to be the Messiah?

I consider him both fully divine and fully human, with an emphasis on His role as the Messiah of His people.

 

[pat34lee]

I consider him both fully divine and fully human, with an emphasis on His role as the Messiah of His people.

When Yeshua became a full mortal, born to Mary, he gave up all his rightful powers as the incarnate Yahweh. Until his baptism by John, he did no miracles because he had not been indwelled by the spirit of Yahweh. During his ministry, he received his power directly from the father. (John 5:19-32) Only after his death did he retake his own powers.

 

[Josephus]

Yeshua is the Word of G-d made flesh. The Torah teaches that Messiah is the House of G-d. Beth El. The rock that Jacob poured oil over... the very act that defines a mashiach, and the first mention of such a concept in the Torah - that he called it Beth El, House of G-d, to teach us who mashiach is. It is written that G-d is not a man, though - and without contradiction - it is written that HaShem is a man (of war) in the Song at the Sea.

Yeshua (Hebrew is Yehoshua) is the Word of G-d (who crosses over into the World to Come ahead of us to bring us into the Land like Yehoshua), and is this Yeshua, Mashiach, the agent of HaShem who does the work of HaShem, and is called HaShem, and is who we are warned in Ex 23:21 to obey or our we will not be forgiven, the King of Israel, and the High Priest of the Heavenly Tabernacle from which the earthly is made in the pattern of, a first born priest in the order of Melchizedek (Shem), and who is coming again, like Moses did (when he was rejected with the words "who made you a prince over us?") in delivering Israel out of Egypt, to deliver us into the World to Come - the picture given to us by Yehoshua, recorded for us in the very next book after the Torah called the Book of Joshua aka the "Book of Jesus" - proving that Yeshua, the Mashiach, will come again too as King, Priest, and Prophet - establishing his kingdom from Israel, ruling over the world, spreading Torah to the world from the holy mountain.

 

[mercy1061]

Yeshua is the Word of G-d made flesh. The Torah teaches that Messiah is the House of G-d. Beth El. The rock that Jacob poured oil over... the very act that defines a mashiach, and the first mention of such a concept in the Torah - that he called it Beth El, House of G-d, to teach us who mashiach is. It is written that G-d is not a man, though - and without contradiction - it is written that HaShem is a man (of war) in the Song at the Sea.

Yeshua (Hebrew is Yehoshua) is the Word of G-d (who crosses over into the World to Come ahead of us to bring us into the Land like Yehoshua), and is this Yeshua, Mashiach, the agent of HaShem who does the work of HaShem, and is called HaShem, and is who we are warned in Ex 23:21 to obey or our we will not be forgiven, the King of Israel, and the High Priest of the Heavenly Tabernacle from which the earthly is made in the pattern of, a first born priest in the order of Melchizedek (Shem), and who is coming again, like Moses did (when he was rejected with the words "who made you a prince over us?") in delivering Israel out of Egypt, to deliver us into the World to Come - the picture given to us by Yehoshua, recorded for us in the very next book after the Torah called the Book of Joshua aka the "Book of Jesus" - proving that Yeshua, the Mashiach, will come again too as King, Priest, and Prophet - establishing his kingdom from Israel, ruling over the world, spreading Torah to the world from the holy mountain.

Amen.

 

[BukiRob]

I am still trying to understand Messianic Judaism. Do all Messianics consider Jesus to be divine, or are there some groups who do not and only consider Jesus to be the Messiah?

1) Only G-d can forgive sin. Luke 5 we see Yeshua heal the paralytic by telling his sins were forgiven.... Luke 5:21 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 24"But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"-- He said to the paralytic-- "I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home."

Yeshua forgives sin and only G-d can do this.

2) At his trial before the high preist he declares Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 "You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?" And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.


It is crystal, unmistakably clear THEY considered Yeshua as declaring himself as divine.

 

[pat34lee]

1) Only G-d can forgive sin. Luke 5 we see Yeshua heal the paralytic by telling his sins were forgiven.... Luke 5:21 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 24"But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"-- He said to the paralytic-- "I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home."

Yeshua forgives sin and only G-d can do this.

2) At his trial before the high preist he declares Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 "You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?" And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.


It is crystal, unmistakably clear THEY considered Yeshua as declaring himself as divine.

As to the second, he would not have said the right hand of power, but the right hand of Yahweh. Speaking the name was blasphemy to them despite the fact that Torah commands us to do so.

 

[Hoshiyya]

The Torah teaches that Messiah is the House of G-d.

What verse are you referring to ?

 

[Hoshiyya]

At his trial before the high preist he declares Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 "You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?" And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.


It is crystal, unmistakably clear THEY considered Yeshua as declaring himself as divine.

No, it is not crystal clear. He declared himself the Son of Man, and that he would sit at the right hand of Power (G-d) and hence equating himself with Metatron, (the only angel allowed to sit in heaven) and this is the "sin" they apparently wanted to have him killed for, in addition to other suspicions they had against him that had nothing to do with doctrinal claims.

 

[Josephus]

What verse are you referring to ?

Gen 28:22, Jacob calls the pillar &#1489;&#1468;&#1461;&#1497;&#1514; &#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501;

Based on the rule of first mention (in this case, the mention of the pouring of oil in Gen 28:18, which is the act of mashach), we learn then that the concept of mashiach - its first mention as a concept (not word), that is, the first mention of anything mashach'ed (forgive the heblish, but there are people here who don't know Hebrew) (annointed, oil poured on) is a stone pillar, and is itself called Beit Elokeim. This then is where the Torah teaches that Messiah is the House of G-d - that the concept of Mashiach, at its root, is identified with the House of G-d.

 

[yonah_mishael]

As to the second, he would not have said the right hand of power, but the right hand of Yahweh. Speaking the name was blasphemy to them despite the fact that Torah commands us to do so.

Where does the Torah command us to speak the name of Yahweh?

 

[fschmidt]

Where does the Torah command us to speak the name of Yahweh?

Exodus 3:15

 

[yonah_mishael]

Exodus 3:15

If Moses were commanded to kill people, would that command apply to you, too? You're saying that because MOSES was commanded to tell people that YHWH was going to deliver them, then there is a universal command to use the name YHWH. Really?