Jesus vs. God ???

[justinstout]

It's so sad to know that there are actually people out there who believe that God literally controls and "ordains" everything that happens in their lives. How depressing it must be to serve such a sadistic, cruel and tyrannical being. I honestly can't imagine serving someone who uses his adversary to torment his own children!
If God is ultimately responsible for and controlling everything that happens, then that would mean Jesus and God worked against each other quite often while Jesus walked this earth. That would mean that God caused storms and then Jesus reversed God's work by calming them. God made people sick and then Jesus destroyed His work by healing them. God gave people demons and then Jesus cast them out. You'd think that Jesus would have eventually been annoyed by such ridiculous behavior on God's part. Then again, since Jesus is God, I guess God was actually working against Himself! Wow... what a great way to make God look like a complete idiot!
The Bible says that Jesus went about doing good and healing everyone who was sick. It also says that He was sent [by God] to destroy [and undo] the works of the devil (1 John 3:8; Acts 10:38). The works of who? So God and the devil were actually working together to make people sick and bring pain into their lives? Hmm... how comforting and edifying to believe that God is actually the tormentor!
If God "ordained" that satan bring sin, sickness, and problems into peoples' lives (as religion claims), then what was Jesus doing destroying those works?? If God "controls everything", then all of those works of the devil were ultimately works of God, right? How can we ever resist (actively fight against) the devil (James 4:7) if we believe that God is using him to "develop our faith" and teach us a lesson??? Hmm... what amazing theology religion has introduced to us! The sad part is that people actually believe this stuff!
It's amazing how people can make God out to be so schizophrenic. It's no wonder why so many millions of people are rejecting God on a daily basis. They probably believe that following Him will make them as confused as the religious people who have described God in such a confusing, unscriptural way.
I've got an outstanding idea.... Let's consider presenting the same Father God to people that Jesus did. People have heard enough false doctrine about God controlling their problems and "ordaining" the hell in their lives as a part of His "sovereign plan". Isn't the Gospel supposed to be GOOD News? I don't think telling someone that God is the one behind the garbage in their lives is Good News. That is not at all what people are needing to hear from us. We need to allow Jesus to reverse the works of the devil in peoples' lives. We don't need to teach them that the devil's work in their lives is actually God's work and God's desire for them!
All I ask is that everyone please consider their beliefs and doctrines about God. Do they line up with what the New Testament proclaims and do they line up with the God that Jesus presented to us? Jesus told us that He was an exact representation of the Father. Did Jesus ever do the things that religion has blamed God for and claimed that God is responsible for?
Have you presented a confusing image of God to other people?
If so, please consider what you're doing. You're not helping people, you're hurting them. People need to know and experience a loving and compassionate God who's willing to help them... and religion has presented to them a sadistic, all-controlling "God" who is actually the one hurting them and "sovereignly ordaining" their pain!

Love in Christ,
Justin
www.justinstout.com

 

[MvdG]

Justin,

Indeed, that's one of the main problems I have with 'conventional wisdom'. The "ahwell, for everything is a reason, maybe God wants to teach you something" is belony.
Yes God want to teach you something, but that's that Christ has already conquered all things for you! That God loves you so much, that despite what you face right now, you can overcome it, if you just trust God(s Word)!

 

[iafic]

It's so sad to know that there are actually people out there who believe that God literally controls and "ordains" everything

nothing is more beautiful than to hear someone else say these things. I often think I am alone in this world with this belief. And no doctrine ticks me off more than blaming my Daddy for tragedy and problems.

Thanks Justin, nice hearing this.

jesus said "I do only what I see my Father do. I say only what I hear my Father say."

and repeating myself..."All scripture (not troubles) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

 

[God_Owned]

It's so sad to know that there are actually people out there who believe that God literally controls and "ordains" everything that happens in their lives. How depressing it must be to serve such a sadistic, cruel and tyrannical being. I honestly can't imagine serving someone who uses his adversary to torment his own children!
If God is ultimately responsible for and controlling everything that happens, then that would mean Jesus and God worked against each other quite often while Jesus walked this earth. That would mean that God caused storms and then Jesus reversed God's work by calming them. God made people sick and then Jesus destroyed His work by healing them. God gave people demons and then Jesus cast them out. You'd think that Jesus would have eventually been annoyed by such ridiculous behavior on God's part. Then again, since Jesus is God, I guess God was actually working against Himself! Wow... what a great way to make God look like a complete idiot!
The Bible says that Jesus went about doing good and healing everyone who was sick. It also says that He was sent [by God] to destroy [and undo] the works of the devil (1 John 3:8; Acts 10:38). The works of who? So God and the devil were actually working together to make people sick and bring pain into their lives? Hmm... how comforting and edifying to believe that God is actually the tormentor!
If God "ordained" that satan bring sin, sickness, and problems into peoples' lives (as religion claims), then what was Jesus doing destroying those works?? If God "controls everything", then all of those works of the devil were ultimately works of God, right? How can we ever resist (actively fight against) the devil (James 4:7) if we believe that God is using him to "develop our faith" and teach us a lesson??? Hmm... what amazing theology religion has introduced to us! The sad part is that people actually believe this stuff!
It's amazing how people can make God out to be so schizophrenic. It's no wonder why so many millions of people are rejecting God on a daily basis. They probably believe that following Him will make them as confused as the religious people who have described God in such a confusing, unscriptural way.
I've got an outstanding idea.... Let's consider presenting the same Father God to people that Jesus did. People have heard enough false doctrine about God controlling their problems and "ordaining" the hell in their lives as a part of His "sovereign plan". Isn't the Gospel supposed to be GOOD News? I don't think telling someone that God is the one behind the garbage in their lives is Good News. That is not at all what people are needing to hear from us. We need to allow Jesus to reverse the works of the devil in peoples' lives. We don't need to teach them that the devil's work in their lives is actually God's work and God's desire for them!
All I ask is that everyone please consider their beliefs and doctrines about God. Do they line up with what the New Testament proclaims and do they line up with the God that Jesus presented to us? Jesus told us that He was an exact representation of the Father. Did Jesus ever do the things that religion has blamed God for and claimed that God is responsible for?
Have you presented a confusing image of God to other people?
If so, please consider what you're doing. You're not helping people, you're hurting them. People need to know and experience a loving and compassionate God who's willing to help them... and religion has presented to them a sadistic, all-controlling "God" who is actually the one hurting them and "sovereignly ordaining" their pain!

Love in Christ,
Justin
www.justinstout.com

Very Good.

 

[justinstout]

Very Good.

Thank you. It's really on my heart. I hear so much false teaching about God's "sovereignty" these days. People simply hate taking responsibility, so they have to blame God for everything that happens. It's really sad.

 

[PastorMike]

It's so sad to know that there are actually people out there who believe that God literally controls and "ordains" everything that happens in their lives. How depressing it must be to serve such a sadistic, cruel and tyrannical being. I honestly can't imagine serving someone who uses his adversary to torment his own children!
If God is ultimately responsible for and controlling everything that happens, then that would mean Jesus and God worked against each other quite often while Jesus walked this earth. That would mean that God caused storms and then Jesus reversed God's work by calming them. God made people sick and then Jesus destroyed His work by healing them. God gave people demons and then Jesus cast them out. You'd think that Jesus would have eventually been annoyed by such ridiculous behavior on God's part. Then again, since Jesus is God, I guess God was actually working against Himself! Wow... what a great way to make God look like a complete idiot!
The Bible says that Jesus went about doing good and healing everyone who was sick. It also says that He was sent [by God] to destroy [and undo] the works of the devil (1 John 3:8; Acts 10:38). The works of who? So God and the devil were actually working together to make people sick and bring pain into their lives? Hmm... how comforting and edifying to believe that God is actually the tormentor!
If God "ordained" that satan bring sin, sickness, and problems into peoples' lives (as religion claims), then what was Jesus doing destroying those works?? If God "controls everything", then all of those works of the devil were ultimately works of God, right? How can we ever resist (actively fight against) the devil (James 4:7) if we believe that God is using him to "develop our faith" and teach us a lesson??? Hmm... what amazing theology religion has introduced to us! The sad part is that people actually believe this stuff!
It's amazing how people can make God out to be so schizophrenic. It's no wonder why so many millions of people are rejecting God on a daily basis. They probably believe that following Him will make them as confused as the religious people who have described God in such a confusing, unscriptural way.
I've got an outstanding idea.... Let's consider presenting the same Father God to people that Jesus did. People have heard enough false doctrine about God controlling their problems and "ordaining" the hell in their lives as a part of His "sovereign plan". Isn't the Gospel supposed to be GOOD News? I don't think telling someone that God is the one behind the garbage in their lives is Good News. That is not at all what people are needing to hear from us. We need to allow Jesus to reverse the works of the devil in peoples' lives. We don't need to teach them that the devil's work in their lives is actually God's work and God's desire for them!
All I ask is that everyone please consider their beliefs and doctrines about God. Do they line up with what the New Testament proclaims and do they line up with the God that Jesus presented to us? Jesus told us that He was an exact representation of the Father. Did Jesus ever do the things that religion has blamed God for and claimed that God is responsible for?
Have you presented a confusing image of God to other people?
If so, please consider what you're doing. You're not helping people, you're hurting them. People need to know and experience a loving and compassionate God who's willing to help them... and religion has presented to them a sadistic, all-controlling "God" who is actually the one hurting them and "sovereignly ordaining" their pain!

Love in Christ,
Justin
www.justinstout.com

That is excellent bro... In Heb 1:3 it tells us that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father or he represents him exactly...

Ok how many did Jesus make sick? None...
How many did he heal? All...

If you want to see exactly what God is like look at Jesus he is God's exact representation...

 

[justinstout]

That is excellent bro... In Heb 1:3 it tells us that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father or he represents him exactly...

Ok how many did Jesus make sick? None...
How many did he heal? All...

If you want to see exactly what God is like look at Jesus he is God's exact representation...

Amen! Check out my page at www.justinstout.com

 

[PastorMike]

That is an excellent page.. there is a lot going on there...

 

[justinstout]

That is an excellent page.. there is a lot going on there...

Thank you. I've put a lot of time into it. Check out our pastor's page. www.myspace.com/drjimrichards

 

[justinstout]

Check out these sites:

www.fambible.org

www.myspace.com/devilwalk

 

[JustAFadedMemory]

The application of this concept really changes the way the book of Job will be interpreted.
The idea that God provided satan with a mission to destroy innocents on the basis of a bet is the worst kind of mere theist heresy.

Satan did not ask, nor did he need permission from God to do what he wanted to do to Job. He, like all free moral (and immoral) agents can do whatever he can get away with doing. The only thing that prevents satan from "getting" people is the presence of some type of "hedge." In the case of Job, the "hedge" was down.
When satan alleged that the only reason Job worshipped was because of a hedge... he did not know the hedge was down (he is not omnipresent present or omniscience).
God responded to satans erroneous reference to a "hedge" by pointing out there was no hedge:
"Look, all he has is in you hands, only touch not his person."
If anything, God placed a restriction upon satan that otherwise would not have existed. In the real world when hedges do not exist people die... usually badly.
So in the end, satan lied when referring to a hedge and God merely corrected him... and did not give permission that was not needed.
What is the difference? Whether God gave satan specific permission or permission existed as a matter of course?
Very big difference. One is passive the other is directed. God did not direct satan to do anything to Job. He is free from all such evil.

Back to the ideas expressed by the OP.
Consider the "hedge concept" in a world where everything is directed by God.
Why a hedge?
What good would a hedge do if God directed some action against you? Would some hedge prevent the will of God from being carried out?
Consider the opposite also. Why would anyone need a hedge to protect them if in fact nothing could be done to you unless God willed it so?
Hedges are moot in a creation where "God is in control of everything."
Promises are moot also. Why would we need promises to protect us from or provide us with things that could only occur as a direct act of God?
The gospel, the cross, and faith are useless and moot. Is the gospel and the cross going to somehow overrule the will of God?

The mere theist presents us with a schizophrenic, multi-personalitied God who is constantly at war with Himself... and we are mere puppets on the battle ground of this war.

The mere theist cannot have faith because to do so would deny God soverengnty. To believe God for anything different than what is currently present would be evidence of a lack of faith, and even rebellion against the manfest will of God in your life.
The entire concept of pleasing God by faith falls apart if the "God is in control of everything" model were true. Under this scheme, faith exists only as the acceptance that all things are currently the perfect will of God. To be discontent in any way... whether due to sickness, poverty, demonic oppression... is considered to be a lack of faith. To strive to believe against such things is considered a lack of faith. True faith for the mere theist is to accept everything in your life as the manifest will of God. There can be no other manifestation of faith if "God is in control of everything."

Peace
dids

 

[churchlady]

The mere theist cannot have faith because to do so would deny God soverengnty. To believe God for anything different than what is currently present would be evidence of a lack of faith, and even rebellion against the manfest will of God in your life.
The entire concept of pleasing God by faith falls apart if the "God is in control of everything" model were true. Under this scheme, faith exists only as the acceptance that all things are currently the perfect will of God. To be discontent in any way... whether due to sickness, poverty, demonic oppression... is considered to be a lack of faith. To strive to believe against such things is considered a lack of faith. True faith for the mere theist is to accept everything in your life as the manifest will of God. There can be no other manifestation of faith if "God is in control of everything."

Peace
dids

If the Devil wanted to think up the perfect delusion, I think this would be it. It sounds so pious but it actually exalts man instead of God.

 

[J4Jesus]

The application of this concept really changes the way the book of Job will be interpreted.
The idea that God provided satan with a mission to destroy innocents on the basis of a bet is the worst kind of mere theist heresy.

Satan did not ask, nor did he need permission from God to do what he wanted to do to Job. He, like all free moral (and immoral) agents can do whatever he can get away with doing. The only thing that prevents satan from "getting" people is the presence of some type of "hedge." In the case of Job, the "hedge" was down.
When satan alleged that the only reason Job worshipped was because of a hedge... he did not know the hedge was down (he is not omnipresent present or omniscience).
God responded to satans erroneous reference to a "hedge" by pointing out there was no hedge:
"Look, all he has is in you hands, only touch not his person."
If anything, God placed a restriction upon satan that otherwise would not have existed. In the real world when hedges do not exist people die... usually badly.
So in the end, satan lied when referring to a hedge and God merely corrected him... and did not give permission that was not needed.
What is the difference? Whether God gave satan specific permission or permission existed as a matter of course?
Very big difference. One is passive the other is directed. God did not direct satan to do anything to Job. He is free from all such evil.

Back to the ideas expressed by the OP.
Consider the "hedge concept" in a world where everything is directed by God.
Why a hedge?
What good would a hedge do if God directed some action against you? Would some hedge prevent the will of God from being carried out?
Consider the opposite also. Why would anyone need a hedge to protect them if in fact nothing could be done to you unless God willed it so?
Hedges are moot in a creation where "God is in control of everything."
Promises are moot also. Why would we need promises to protect us from or provide us with things that could only occur as a direct act of God?
The gospel, the cross, and faith are useless and moot. Is the gospel and the cross going to somehow overrule the will of God?

The mere theist presents us with a schizophrenic, multi-personalitied God who is constantly at war with Himself... and we are mere puppets on the battle ground of this war.

The mere theist cannot have faith because to do so would deny God soverengnty. To believe God for anything different than what is currently present would be evidence of a lack of faith, and even rebellion against the manfest will of God in your life.
The entire concept of pleasing God by faith falls apart if the "God is in control of everything" model were true. Under this scheme, faith exists only as the acceptance that all things are currently the perfect will of God. To be discontent in any way... whether due to sickness, poverty, demonic oppression... is considered to be a lack of faith. To strive to believe against such things is considered a lack of faith. True faith for the mere theist is to accept everything in your life as the manifest will of God. There can be no other manifestation of faith if "God is in control of everything."

Peace
dids

Excellent!

 

[Nobel22]

It's so sad to know that there are actually people out there who believe that God literally controls and "ordains" everything that happens in their lives. How depressing it must be to serve such a sadistic, cruel and tyrannical being. I honestly can't imagine serving someone who uses his adversary to torment his own children!
If God is ultimately responsible for and controlling everything that happens, then that would mean Jesus and God worked against each other quite often while Jesus walked this earth. That would mean that God caused storms and then Jesus reversed God's work by calming them. God made people sick and then Jesus destroyed His work by healing them. God gave people demons and then Jesus cast them out. You'd think that Jesus would have eventually been annoyed by such ridiculous behavior on God's part. Then again, since Jesus is God, I guess God was actually working against Himself! Wow... what a great way to make God look like a complete idiot!
The Bible says that Jesus went about doing good and healing everyone who was sick. It also says that He was sent [by God] to destroy [and undo] the works of the devil (1 John 3:8; Acts 10:38). The works of who? So God and the devil were actually working together to make people sick and bring pain into their lives? Hmm... how comforting and edifying to believe that God is actually the tormentor!
If God "ordained" that satan bring sin, sickness, and problems into peoples' lives (as religion claims), then what was Jesus doing destroying those works?? If God "controls everything", then all of those works of the devil were ultimately works of God, right? How can we ever resist (actively fight against) the devil (James 4:7) if we believe that God is using him to "develop our faith" and teach us a lesson??? Hmm... what amazing theology religion has introduced to us! The sad part is that people actually believe this stuff!
It's amazing how people can make God out to be so schizophrenic. It's no wonder why so many millions of people are rejecting God on a daily basis. They probably believe that following Him will make them as confused as the religious people who have described God in such a confusing, unscriptural way.
I've got an outstanding idea.... Let's consider presenting the same Father God to people that Jesus did. People have heard enough false doctrine about God controlling their problems and "ordaining" the hell in their lives as a part of His "sovereign plan". Isn't the Gospel supposed to be GOOD News? I don't think telling someone that God is the one behind the garbage in their lives is Good News. That is not at all what people are needing to hear from us. We need to allow Jesus to reverse the works of the devil in peoples' lives. We don't need to teach them that the devil's work in their lives is actually God's work and God's desire for them!
All I ask is that everyone please consider their beliefs and doctrines about God. Do they line up with what the New Testament proclaims and do they line up with the God that Jesus presented to us? Jesus told us that He was an exact representation of the Father. Did Jesus ever do the things that religion has blamed God for and claimed that God is responsible for?
Have you presented a confusing image of God to other people?
If so, please consider what you're doing. You're not helping people, you're hurting them. People need to know and experience a loving and compassionate God who's willing to help them... and religion has presented to them a sadistic, all-controlling "God" who is actually the one hurting them and "sovereignly ordaining" their pain!

Love in Christ,
Justin
www.justinstout.com

Very good! Its always good to hear someone with a like minded heart ! PreacherMike took the words out of my mouth so I will just second his reply to you.

 

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Erm...are you changing your icon??

God will and can use anything He so chooses to bring us to know Him better and often through our mistakes and or the devils attacks we find our self in a less than desireable place....all things work together for our good for those who love God and are called according to HIS purpose....Don't ever forget that It is HE that hath made us and not we ourselves...it's enough to be In Christ and abiding In Him....the servant is not greater than the master....lest we all forget...and find ourselves in pride or false humility...the Bible does say pride comes before a fall.
God IS God and besides Him there is NO other...Jesus is seated at the right hand of God and we are seated with Jesus in heavely places...that should be enough....I'm not really sure what this post was supposed to be about...but we need to remember these words...I've found myself grieved in my spirit by this post and I don't think God is too happy with it either....and I thought in order to post in WOF you had to carry the icon????