Jesus teaching on the New Birth, Born Again !

[Jesus is YHWH]

Why would Jesus tell Nicodemus about being born again if it was something that was out of Nicodemus’s control? It would be futile of Jesus to give this information to Nicodemus because there would be nothing Nicodemus could ever do with this information if he could never do anything that would lead God to make him to be born again. Jesus appeared to blame Nicodemus for not accepting what he was teaching. On top of that, Jesus was using language that sounds like a command and not a suggestion, either. Jesus says: “Ye must be born again.” (John 3:7). Ye is just another way of saying, “You-all.” So Jesus is saying… “You all must be born again.” Jesus is speaking to all people here and commanding that they must be born again. For if the Lord Jesus told you to jump over a fence, would you not take that as a command? So the language used here is Jesus telling Nicodemus and the Jews to be born again. It is a directive or a command.

““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.” (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

God gave the commandments that could not be kept either in the OT. Paul said it was a schoolmaster to point us to Christ who fulfilled that law on our part. The law was to put all under sin and its a curse.

Galatians 3
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

 

[Butch5]

John 3:3-10
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely, they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?


So let’s go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

Summary: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so too does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Regeneration-born again has to do with the wind in the context and parallels the new birth in that process.

This topic is specifically the New Birth, Born Again of the Spirit which is compared to the Wind and how it operates as Jesus the Master Teacher illustrated in John 3 to Nicodemus.

Here are a couple of questions to ponder from the text.

1- Do you control or have any influence over the wind?
2- Can you call the wind?

Neither can a person call Gods Spirit in the new birth as it’s an Act of GOD. See John 1:13. Born again by God.


The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 off the top of my head reading through the passage:

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom

hope this helps !!!

I notice a contrast between wind and spirit. They are the same word. There is no difference. I would also throw in this suggestion. The phrase, "Born Again" is a metaphor for the resurrection. What does it mean to be born of the Spirit?. Paul said, if the spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you, He will also, by the spirit, raise you from the dead (paraphased). If God uses the spirit to raise one from the dead it is essentially being born of the spirit.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I notice a contrast between wind and spirit. They are the same word. There is no difference. I would also throw in this suggestion. The phrase, "Born Again" is a metaphor for the resurrection. What does it mean to be born of the Spirit?. Paul said, if the spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you, He will also, by the spirit, raise you from the dead (paraphased). If God uses the spirit to raise one from the dead it is essentially being born of the spirit.

Sorry you are way off I will deal your post this evening.

 

[Clare73]

I notice a contrast between wind and spirit. They are the same word. There is no difference.

There is no contrtast, there is comparison in likeness. . .that's the point. . .made in the text.

I would also throw in this suggestion. The phrase,
"Born Again" is a metaphor for the resurrection.

No, born again is the rebirth, from the spiritiual death into which we are born, into eternal life through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

What does it mean to be born of the Spirit?. Paul said, if the spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you, He will also, by the spirit, raise you from the dead (paraphased). If God uses the spirit to raise one from the dead it is essentially being born of the spirit.

I don't think so. . .

Your paraphrase absolutely alters the meaning of the text, which is: "He will also, by the Spirit, give life to your mortal bodies."

Romans 8:11 is not about spiritual rebirth, it is about the resurrection, which is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit living in me, who will raise my mortal body as he raised Jesus' mortal body.

Is this your usual method of interpreting Scripture? If so, it certainly explains a lot.

 

[Butch5]

Sorry you are way off I will deal your post this evening.

lol

 

[Butch5]

Is this your usual method of interpreting Scripture? If so, it certainly explains a lot.

lol

 

[Clare73]

lol

Non-responsive. . .

 

[Derf]

I notice a contrast between wind and spirit. They are the same word. There is no difference. I would also throw in this suggestion. The phrase, "Born Again" is a metaphor for the resurrection. What does it mean to be born of the Spirit?. Paul said, if the spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you, He will also, by the spirit, raise you from the dead (paraphased). If God uses the spirit to raise one from the dead it is essentially being born of the spirit.

I appreciate your thoughts on this. It always seemed to me that Jesus ignored what Nicodemus said, rather than answering his question. But as I've studied this passage recently, I'm starting to think Jesus was affirming what Nicodemus said.
[Jhn 3:4-5 ESV] 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

There is a connection between the grave and the womb, according to David.
[Psa 9:17 ESV] 17 The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.
You can't return to a place you have never been before. But most Christians reject the idea that live souls populating Sheol are placed into babies when conceived.

[Psa 139:13, 15 ESV] 13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. ... 15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.

These are parallel concepts in Ps 139. "Knitted" goes with "woven", and "mother's womb" goes with "depths of the earth".

If Jesus was thinking of such a connection, then when Nicodemus was asking about returning to his mother's womb, Jesus might have been answering "Truly, truly", and then giving more details. That connection is seen in this verse as well, comparing "belly" (the word is more often translated "womb") to "heart of the earth" (He was talking about the grave, or Hades in NT/Sheol in OT):
[Mat 12:40 ESV] 40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I notice a contrast between wind and spirit. They are the same word. There is no difference. I would also throw in this suggestion. The phrase, "Born Again" is a metaphor for the resurrection. What does it mean to be born of the Spirit?. Paul said, if the spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you, He will also, by the spirit, raise you from the dead (paraphased). If God uses the spirit to raise one from the dead it is essentially being born of the spirit.

So the Holy Spirit is the wind blowing the trees off of your trees in the fall ?

And show us from the BIBLE where born again is associated with Resurrection in the same passage.

All I see are your assumptions void of Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

I appreciate your thoughts on this. It always seemed to me that Jesus ignored what Nicodemus said, rather than answering his question. But as I've studied this passage recently, I'm starting to think Jesus was affirming what Nicodemus said.
[Jhn 3:4-5 ESV] 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

There is a connection between the grave and the womb, according to David.
[Psa 9:17 ESV] 17 The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.
You can't return to a place you have never been before. But most Christians reject the idea that live souls populating Sheol are placed into babies when conceived.

[Psa 139:13, 15 ESV] 13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. ... 15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.

These are parallel concepts in Ps 139. "Knitted" goes with "woven", and "mother's womb" goes with "depths of the earth".

If Jesus was thinking of such a connection, then when Nicodemus was asking about returning to his mother's womb, Jesus might have been answering "Truly, truly", and then giving more details. That connection is seen in this verse as well, comparing "belly" (the word is more often translated "womb") to "heart of the earth" (He was talking about the grave, or Hades in NT/Sheol in OT):
[Mat 12:40 ESV] 40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I see your point. I personally don't believe the soul exists apart from the body. The connections you make seem valid to me.

There's also another aspect that people often overlook. Jesus was an Israelite and so was Nicodemus. The Israelites were already, when Jesus spoke, born of God. Israel was God's son.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

God said Israel was His first born. As the children of God they believed that they were heirs to the promises that God had made to Abraham. God had promised to give Abraham the Promised Land. The Israelites believed this was their inheritance by birth. This would be the Kingdom. However, Jesus told Him no, your first birth of God as the children of Abraham is not sufficient to gain access into the Kingdom. You're going to need to be born again. The phrase "Born Again" in the Bible is only used in reference to Israelites. The process is the same for Gentiles, however, for them it is the first birth. Notice John tells his readers, Gentiles, that they are born of God, not born again. Nicodemus obviously misunderstood, thinking Jesus meant another physical birth from His mother. As I said, I think it's a metaphor for the Resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

So the Holy Spirit is the wind blowing the trees off of your trees in the fall ?

And show us from the BIBLE where born again is associated with Resurrection in the same passage.

All I see are your assumptions void of Scripture.

well, it was a suggestion. Either way, the words neshsamah, ruach, pneuma, and noe, mean wind. They're often translated wind or breath. When translated "spirit" it's a figure of speech.

Τὸ πνεῦμα ὅπου θέλει πνεῖ, καὶ τὴν φωνὴν αὐτοῦ ἀκούεις, ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ οἶδας πόθεν ἔρχεται καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγει· οὕτως ἐστὶν πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος. (Jn. 3:8 BYZ)

Either the wind blows through the trees or the spirit blows through the trees, but it's the same word.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

well, it was a suggestion. Either way, the words neshsamah, ruach, pneuma, and noe, mean wind. They're often translated wind or breath. When translated "spirit" it's a figure of speech.

Τὸ πνεῦμα ὅπου θέλει πνεῖ, καὶ τὴν φωνὴν αὐτοῦ ἀκούεις, ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ οἶδας πόθεν ἔρχεται καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγει· οὕτως ἐστὶν πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος. (Jn. 3:8 BYZ)

Either the wind blows through the trees or the spirit blows through the trees, but it's the same word.

Its nice to know you think the trade winds are the Holy Spirit.

nuff said the readers can see what you are doing with your word games but the only one you are fooling is yourself, no one is buying what you are peddling butch.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Butch5]

Its nice to know you think the trade winds are the Holy Spirit.

nuff said the readers can see what you are doing with your word games but the only one you are fooling is yourself, no one is buying what you are peddling butch.

hope this helps !!!

Should I assume from this that you don't understand? It seems to me your comment about the trade winds shows you don't understand. Your dismissal of the evidence set before you suggests to me that you're not interested in correctly understanding, is that the case?

Whether or not you engage it, the evidence, it remains. The words simply mean wind. How that applies to God is for us to figure out. I've figured it out and was offering to help you, but it seems you're not interested.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Should I assume from this that you don't understand? It seems to me your comment about the trade winds shows you don't understand. Your dismissal of the evidence set before you suggests to me that you're not interested in correctly understanding, is that the case?

Whether or not you engage it, the evidence, it remains. The words simply mean wind. How that applies to God is for us to figure out. I've figured it out and was offering to help you, but it seems you're not interested.

Do you know what a comparison means ?
Do you know what a contrast means ?
Do you understand the Jesus is making comparisons/contrasts in John 3 ?
Do you know what those are in John 3 ?

Lets see you list them for us.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

I see your point. I personally don't believe the soul exists apart from the body. The connections you make seem valid to me.

There's also another aspect that people often overlook. Jesus was an Israelite and so was Nicodemus. The Israelites were already, when Jesus spoke, born of God. Israel was God's son.

Only those who believed in the Promise (Genesis 5:6, the Seed, Jesus Christ) and obeyed
were born of God. Not all did.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

God said Israel was His first born.

Figuratively, it referred to Christ, as the sacrifices and many things in the Law figuratively referred to Christ.

As the children of God they believed that they were heirs to the promises that God had made to Abraham. God had promised to give Abraham the Promised Land. The Israelites believed this was their inheritance by birth. This would be the Kingdom. However, Jesus told Him no, your first birth of God as the children of Abraham is not sufficient to gain access into the Kingdom. You're going to need to be born again. The phrase "Born Again" in the Bible is only used in reference to Israelites.

Except where it isn't, as in Galatians 4:29, where being born by the power of the Spirit occurs now.

The process is the same for Gentiles, however, for them it is the first birth.

That is absurd. Everyone's first birth is his physical birth from the womb of his physical mother.

Notice John tells his readers, Gentiles, that they are born of God, not born again.

Absurd. . .notice: the Holy Spirit is God.
Born of the Holy Spirit in the rebirth is born of God in the rebirth.

More dispensational methodology of dividing into two, events that are the same.

Nicodemus obviously misunderstood, thinking Jesus meant another physical birth from His mother. As I said, I think it's a metaphor for the Resurrection.

And you think contrary to NT teaching (John 1:13).

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Only those who believed in the Promise (Genesis 5:6, the Seed, Jesus Christ) and obeyed
were born of God. Not all did.
Figuratively, it referred to Christ, as the sacrifices and many things in the Law figuratively referred to Christ.
Except where it isn't, as in Galatians 4:29, where being born by the power of the Spirit occurs now.

That is absurd. Everyone's first birth is his physical birth from the womb of his physical mother.

Absurd. . .notice: the Holy Spirit is God.
Born of the Holy Spirit in the rebirth is born of God in the rebirth.

More dispensational methodology of dividing events that are the same into two.
And you think contrary to NT teaching (John 1:13).

Yes he has some very unbiblical ideas.

 

[Butch5]

Yes he has some very unbiblical ideas.

There's a difference between Christianity and Churchianity.

So, tell us, what is this new birth?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

There's a difference between Christianity and Churchianity.

So, tell us, what is this new birth?

Read my OP

 

[Butch5]

Read my OP

I did. So what's the new birth?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I did. So what's the new birth?

Reread the OP it’s explained