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Jesus teaching on the New Birth, Born Again !

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jesus is YHWH, Aug 21, 2021.

  1. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am not talking about by products or carts and horses. The new birth no doubt precedes all understanding. In John 5, the Lord is claiming all authority to make this happen. You insist that
    this does not include the new birth itself. He is teaching what He has spoken previously to Nicodemus, but in the context of the authority He has been given from the Father.

    John 5:
    24
    Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me
    has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

    25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. [Dead physically or spiritually? A simple question]
    26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.

    When someone has been born again, per John 3:7, they have passed from death to life,
    they have access to the eternal life that is in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is
    not a by product. This is life and that more abundantly. He does not speak of resurrection,
    and judgment until verse 28. That also pertains to His authority, which is to judge all.
    Jesus is making a definitive statement here, that He alone has all authority to grant the
    new birth/new life spoken of earlier in His talk with Nicodemus. This is not cart before horse,
    this is teaching in more detail pertaining to the same subject. Otherwise, what does John 5
    tell us? Calling this incredibly detailed teaching a "by product" surely requires a better explanation.


     
  2. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Where did I say the following :

    In John 5, the Lord is claiming all authority to make this happen. You insist that
    this does not include the new birth itself.
     
  3. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When you said that John 5:21-25 is inapplicable to the discussion of the new birth, and
    a byproduct of the teaching. I am calling this a parallel to the discussion, with the focus
    on authority. Does John 5:25 reference the new birth or not? Previously, you answered no.
     
  4. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    No its referencing the Resurrection of the dead. Can it have a secondary meaning that could include the new birth ? yes.

    Jesus tells us what He means below in verses 28-30.

    28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
     
  5. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    28-30 is clearly the resurrection and judgment.
    You are missing a semantic device here.
    28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves
    will hear His voice....

    Compare to:
    25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
    This is a reference to the spiritually dead, for
    they will pass from death to life. (v24)
    He uses the same formulation in chapter 4:

    21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. (prophetic to the temple destruction?)
    23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
    This is one of His most important revelations, and it is given to a Samaritan woman at a well.
    24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
    I posted a thread a few months back entitled "finding the bride at the well", as a motif throughout
    scriptures. He introduces this formulation of "the hour is coming when", and "the hour is coming, and
    now is", used again in John 5. I am confident if you would consider the implications of how He words
    His statement, there is clear relevance to sound comprehension.
    John 5:28 does not clarify John 25 as you suppose. On the contrary, it is in clear contrast;
    of the new birth which now is, and to the resurrection at the end of the age
    and judgment.
    I would humbly ask you to consider whether or not you may have overlooked this in the past,

    and I am only trying to help point something out. BE the Samaritan woman!
     
  6. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Or maybe its a reference to Him being the Resurrection and the Life alluding to the raising of Lazarus from the dead.
     
  7. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What exactly does this statement mean to you?
    John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him
    who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed
    from death into life.

    Have born again Christians passed from death to life? Does this apply to the "now is"?
    If so, does it not pertain to the new birth?
     
  8. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Once again its the cart before the horse. Man is dead in sin. He is in need of regeneration first before he can respond to the call of the gospel and receive eternal life.

    paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal

    Original Word:
    παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: paliggenesia
    Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
    Definition: regeneration, renewal
    Usage: a new birth, regeneration, renewal. properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.

    Thayers- παλιγγενεσία- properly, new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation . Commonly, however, the word denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as the renewal or restoration of life after death.

    In English, the word generate means to bring into existence; cause to be; produce. Re-generate basically means again.

    So, it means to bring into existence again, renewed, rebirth, recreate, restoration etc......

    When God created Adam, Adam was spiritually alive. When they sinned in the garden they died spiritually.

    This is what it means when Paul says we were (past tense) dead in sins. ( Ephesians 2:1,5) We were regenerated and brought back to spiritual life (that man was originally created with, hence rebirth, renewed, born anew-again, born of the spirit etc...). A work of God not by mans will or human decision. John 1:13.

    Ephesians 2:4-5- But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

    Colossians 2:13
    When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

    Paul says:
    (1 Corinthians 2:14 ) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    The natural man is a spiritually dead person who is unsaved. He does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, and he cannot know them. Why? Because they are spiritually discerned.

    Then in the next verse Paul says:
    (1 Corinthians 2:15) But he who is spiritual judges all things . . .

    The word "judges” basically means to sift, to examine, to decide rightly.

    The question is, how does a natural man who does not accept the things of the Spirit of God become spiritual so that he can sift, examine or decide rightly? The correct answer is that God must sovereignly do it through regeneration.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  9. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When the Gospel is preached and the word is received, does the Holy Spirit
    convict the hearts of the hearer to receive the gift? Does the Holy Spirit impart
    regeneration into a heart convicted by the preaching of the Gospel?
    In the preaching of the Gospel, which is the cart, and the horse?
     
  10. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    I explained the process above. Regeneration precedes faith. The dead cannot believe.
     
  11. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is called conviction of the heart, the working of the preaching of God's Word, empowered
    by the Holy Spirit's authority to bring that conviction to bear.

    Romans 10:
    14
    How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
    And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
    And how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
    How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
    Who bring glad tidings of good things!
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report?
    17
    So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    I am unable to align your process, as explained, with Paul's teaching, so I will just have
    to let it go. Your explanation in post #48, just by way of observation, really does not account
    for the preaching of the Gospel. Maybe we are talking about a totally different cart.



    Or, as Paul interprets the wisdom of God that brings salvation/regeneration.
    1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God,
    it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
    Am I foolish enough to believe in the power of a message preached to bring the dead to life?
     
  12. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Did you leave one off your list?

    The sovereignty of the Holy Spirit, regenerating where he pleases (John 3:8), based on nothing but his choice to do so?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2021
  13. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    No that is implied in the text by Jesus.
     
  14. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    If we are dead in our sins and do not have spiritual life because we are spiritually dead then life must come first before their can be a response to anything spiritual. The gospel is spiritual, God is spiritual, scripture is spiritual. Hence the need for regeneration- the new birth. Once we have been made alive spiritually from the dead then and only then can we respond to the call of the gospel. Think of that spiritual life as God drawing you to Him. Until you are alive, living you cannot respond to God nor will anyone want to since we are dead in our trespasses and sins. I don't know how else I can explain this or communicate this to you where you can understand my point.

    I'm not asking you to agree with me just to understand the reasoning behind it.

    Maybe this can help. Did Lazarus come out of the grave and respond before or after Jesus made him alive ?

    hope this helps !!!
     
  15. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am saying that Paul has made the point very clear. God has made provision for this
    regeneration to occur in the preaching of the Word of Truth, and the giving of the Holy
    Spirit who convicts THE WORLD of sin, righteousness, and judgment. This is fully expounded
    upon by the Lord in the Gospel of John, and in Paul's theology, especially Romans.
    This doctrine of regeneration that you are expounding upon, apart from the preaching of the
    Gospel is alien to the apostolic doctrine. Claiming "God's Sovereignty" as the deciding factor adds
    no weight to your position. No one is questioning God's Sovereignty. The wonder is that He allows
    that to be "undermined" by the whining prayers and intercessions of His children. Do you pray for
    lost friends and relatives? If so, why bother, if your rigid idea of regeneration is that of a predetermination of God's Will. If we are not actively involved in all areas of bringing salvation
    to the world, then we have lazily re-written the Gospel to excuse ourselves. The power of regeneration
    is in the preaching of God's Word. The Holy Spirit seals this with a guarantee.
    I am in no further need of an explanation from you to communicate or for me to understand your point.
     
  16. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Now you are going off topic so I will just leave at this for now. If you want to start your own thread and tag me with this discussion I'm all in.
     
  17. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Interesting that in John 5:21 we see the following from the text and its implications.


    For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

    As the Father raised up the dead - This he did in the case of the widow's son at Sarepta, 1 Kings 17:22, by the ministry of the Prophet Elijah. And again, in the case of the Shunamite's son, 2 Kings 4:32-35, by the ministry of the Prophet Elisha.

    The Son quickeneth whom he will - He raiseth from death to life whomsoever he pleases. So he did, for he raised the ruler's daughter, Mark 5:35-42; the widow's son at Nain, Luke 7:11-15; and Lazarus, at Bethany, John 11:14-44.clarke

    hope this helps !!!
     
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  18. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here is where you define regeneration. Greek word, dictionaries, etc...
    Then you quote a series of verses from Paul; post ascension and day of Pentecost teachings,
    that he received from the Holy Spirit.

    While presumably elaborating on the idea of regeneration, you are trying to apply this to a teaching
    for the Pharisee Nicodemus. This is impossible! Heavenly truth that cannot be comprehended with earthly things. Look at the one verse that always seems to get
    skimmed over:
    John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

    So, as a the teacher of Israel, what should Nicodemus been aware of? The same thing we should be
    if we read our Bible, that the people of Israel over history had many, many "spiritual revivals", where
    they returned to the Lord, destroyed their idols, drove out apostasies, etc...only to fall right back into
    their old ways, usually within one generation. Why is that so? There was no power of regeneration in
    these brief "earthly activities of man".

    12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe,
    how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

    Now watch this, because a lot of people aren't going to like it. How many people are there who cannot
    sustain even the appearance of righteous living without attending to an endless stream of revivals,
    conferences, retreats, much less a weekly attendance at church, all of these are but brief "earthly
    activities of man", when true regeneration and renewal is only found in abiding in the Holy Spirit?


    Psalm 77:13 Your way, O God, is in the sanctuary;
    Who is so great a God as our God?
     
  19. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    No worries I'm not going to change your mind and neither will you change mine. We can agree to disagree. Shalom.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Why would Jesus tell Nicodemus about being born again if it was something that was out of Nicodemus’s control? It would be futile of Jesus to give this information to Nicodemus because there would be nothing Nicodemus could ever do with this information if he could never do anything that would lead God to make him to be born again. Jesus appeared to blame Nicodemus for not accepting what he was teaching. On top of that, Jesus was using language that sounds like a command and not a suggestion, either. Jesus says: “Ye must be born again.” (John 3:7). Ye is just another way of saying, “You-all.” So Jesus is saying… “You all must be born again.” Jesus is speaking to all people here and commanding that they must be born again. For if the Lord Jesus told you to jump over a fence, would you not take that as a command? So the language used here is Jesus telling Nicodemus and the Jews to be born again. It is a directive or a command.

    ““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.” (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).
     
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