Discussion Jesus' Teaching About Slavery

[Ajflyguy7]

• I will tell you that Jesus gave the world only two specific rules to live by, they are...
• Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.
• Those two cover it all, including slavery.

Wow, that must be the super condensed Cliffs Notes version. It seems like the "almighty god" could have put some verbiage in there to the tune of, "Though shalt not own a human being as property or treat another human being as a slave." That would have cleared things up immediately. Instead, he gave us rules about how to beat slaves and Jesus said, "Slaves, obey your masters." I think that covers the topic of slavery. The god of the Bible likes slavery.

 

[lismore]

I know they used force, but I meant how did the sunday morning, church going, Christians support slavery?

Hi Franky. Force in the sense of state/ corporate sanctions.

Sunday morning, church going Christians might be reluctant to do anything that would bring down the forceful wrath of the state or their neighbours down on their heads, risking their homes and incomes, therefore they would tow the line and use 'Pauline submission' to governing authorities to justify it from the pulpit. Is it any different today? There are things going on in the world that would make a billy goat puke, the voice of the church is not to be heard. Afraid of appearing different, of making a stand.

In my own country in previous years we had crofters, small farmers being evicted from their farms in the thousands, the 'Highland Clearances'. Homes their ancestors had lived in for thousands of years. The church refused to stand against this because they thought it would undermine 'private ownership of property'. An aristocrat had the right to millions of acres of land with no human beings in it if he so wished.

How can the church support greed based on the destitution of many? (and still do so?)

The fear of force.

God Bless

 

[lismore]

and Jesus said, "Slaves, obey your masters."

Hello.

There is a tremendous danger in quoting the bible out of it's context. Look at the next part:

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him (Eph 6:9)

And Jesus didn't write that part of the bible!

 

[Ajflyguy7]

Hello.

There is a tremendous danger in quoting the bible out of it's context. Look at the next part:

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him (Eph 6:9)

And Jesus didn't write that part of the bible!

Jesus didn't write anything in the Bible. There are zero quotes in the Bible that are directly from Jesus. The stories in the Bible were oral tradition for decades to centuries before they were written down. No one really knows what "Jesus" said. However, in this case Jesus is telling slaves to obey their masters. It seems to me that an all powerful and loving god could say something like release your slaves, for it is immoral to own (and beat) another human being. I'm sure an all powerful being would have inserted even more wisdom here, but your Jesus just said, my dad's scary, you better watch out, be nice to those guys.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

You are right, but if all the other sins were addressed by name, then why wasn't slavery?

I believe it was, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Of course the type of slavery we think of in this country is different than what the Bible references. The slaves then were the spoils of war, as well as people selling themselves into slavery in order to pay off debts. At the end of 7 years slaves were also offered the freedom to leave and if they chose to leave the slave owner was instructed to give them what they needed in order to start a new life.

 

[Ajflyguy7]

S

I believe it was, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Of course the type of slavery we think of in this country is different than what the Bible references. The slaves then were the spoils of war, as well as people selling themselves into slavery in order to pay off debts. At the end of 7 years slaves were also offered the freedom to leave and if they chose to leave the slave owner was instructed to give them what they needed in order to start a new life.

So, why the direction on how to beat them? Why would a loving god instruct us on how to beat other humans?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

S

So, why the direction on how to beat them? Why would a loving god instruct us on how to neat other humans?

The instructions were NOT "how to beat them" they were the actions they needed to take if/when they did. Just as we are not perfect, neither were the Hebrews...Hense the Torah instruction.

 

[Ajflyguy7]

The instructions were NOT "how to beat them" they were the actions they needed to take if/when they did. Just as we are not perfect, neither were the Hebrews...Hense the Torah instruction.

I never claimed the Hebrews were perfect, but people claim that god is perfect. I don't see why a perfect being would allow for slavery and tell masters that they can beat their slaves, as long as they don't die within a day or two. That seems less than perfect.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I understand what you

I never claimed the Hebrews were perfect, but people claim that god is perfect. I don't see why a perfect being would allow for slavery and tell masters that they can beat their slaves, as long as they don't die within a day or two. That seems less than perfect.

I understand what you are saying. God did not tell the Hebrews it was OK to beat their slaves. His permitting it, meaning He did not immediately strike the abuser dead, shows His mercy and grace. HE instructed them to treat no man poorly, but in the event they failed to not let their temper and ego to get the best of them there were sacrifices. they had to perform to the LORD. See "guilt offerings" and "sin offering" In the event the slave died, the beater had to answer for it. If the slaying was intentional, that would fall under "thou shalt not murder", whether it was a brother or a slave, and there were penalties of death for murder. In my search so far I have found sacrifices ONLY for unintentional sins in Torah.

God is ever willing to forgive us when we disobey, whether intentional or on purpose. I'm thankful He does not just "strike me dead" when I sin. He won't allow it forever though, and there WILL come a day when unless our sins are covered by the Blood of Yeshaua" it's over.

 

[Ajflyguy7]

I understand what you

I understand what you are saying. God did not tell the Hebrews it was OK to beat their slaves. His permitting it, meaning He did not immediately strike the abuser dead, shows His mercy and grace. HE instructed them to treat no man poorly, but in the event they failed to not let their temper and ego to get the best of them there were sacrifices. they had to perform to the LORD. See "guilt offerings" and "sin offering" In the event the slave died, the beater had to answer for it. If the slaying was intentional, that would fall under "thou shalt not murder", whether it was a brother or a slave, and there were penalties of death for murder. In my search so far I have found sacrifices ONLY for unintentional sins in Torah.

God is ever willing to forgive us when we disobey, whether intentional or on purpose. I'm thankful He does not just "strike me dead" when I sin. He won't allow it forever though, and there WILL come a day when unless our sins are covered by the Blood of Yeshaua" it's over.

What happened to grace and mercy during the Noah's Ark story? I don't see any grace or mercy in sending people to hell for eternity. It's funny to me that god's rules don't apply to him as well.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

What happened to grace and mercy during the Noah's Ark story? I don't see any grace or mercy in sending people to hell for eternity. It's funny to me that god's rules don't apply to him as well.

It took Noah 120 years to build that ark and the entire time Noah was warning the people....that sounds like a lot of mercy and grace to me.

 

[Ajflyguy7]

It took Noah 120 years to build that ark and the entire time Noah was warning the people....that sounds like a lot of mercy and grace to me.

Lol, the fact that people believe that blows my mind. I know the Bible says it is true, but really? Do you really think Noah was 600 years old at that time?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Lol, the fact that people believe that blows my mind. I know the Bible says it is true, but really? Do you really think Noah was 600 years old at that time?

Well, yes According to Got Questions .org

"Noah entered the ark in the 600th year of his life, on the 17th day of the 2nd month (Genesis 7:11-13). Noah left the ark on the 27th day of the 2nd month of the following year (Genesis 8:14-15). ​

In my opinion, just because we don't live that long at this time, does not mean they did not live that long then. See Creation. org There is no scientific proof that it could not happen. Considering Adam lived over 900 years, Noah would have been not even middle aged yet

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Maybe the confederates penned down their reasons.

Jesus in Luke 4 came with good news for the oppressed. Philemon mentions slavery and raises the title of Onesimus to brother and pays his debts, but does not release him from service. The last mention of slavery in the Bible is in Revelation, condemning slavery and the overall greedy capitalism of either Rome or times to come.

 

[Ajflyguy7]

Where does Revelation condemn slavery? The Bible gives us rules on owning slaves, beating slaves, etc. I have never seen anything in the Bible that condemns slavery.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Where does Revelation condemn slavery? The Bible gives us rules on owning slaves, beating slaves, etc. I have never seen anything in the Bible that condemns slavery.

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their cargo any more;
Rev 18:12 the cargo of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and every ivory vessel, and every vessel of very precious wood, and of bronze, and of iron, and of marble,
Rev 18:13 and cinnamon, and incenses, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, Heaven, and the holy apostles, and the prophets, since God judged your judgment on her.

Then there is Philemon, and the status change Paul gave Onesimus as a taster of what had taken place in Jerusalem after Pentecost as in Acts, from Moses' economy to the Apostles. Everything in common.

Rome's capitalism was greedy and damned.

Traditionally Christians are against slavery from the whole Bible message that got through in Europe. The example being England and Wilberforce 100 years before Marx.

 

[Aldebaran]

Slavery was specifically addressed, check out Exodus 21:20-21 ""If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. "If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."

That sounds to me like it is fine by God to own slaves and beat them, as long as they don't die within a day or two. Such a loving God he is!

Slavery is also addressed in the New Testament:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. (Ephesians 6:5-9)

 

[Ajflyguy7]

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their cargo any more;
Rev 18:12 the cargo of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and every ivory vessel, and every vessel of very precious wood, and of bronze, and of iron, and of marble,
Rev 18:13 and cinnamon, and incenses, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, Heaven, and the holy apostles, and the prophets, since God judged your judgment on her.

Then there is Philemon, and the status change Paul gave Onesimus as a taster of what had taken place in Jerusalem after Pentecost as in Acts, from Moses' economy to the Apostles. Everything in common.

Rome's capitalism was greedy and damned.

Traditionally Christians are against slavery from the whole Bible message that got through in Europe. The example being England and Wilberforce 100 years before Marx.

I guess somehow, that condemns slavery to you. I get nothing about condemning slavery in those verses. Oh well, I don't have to justify it in my mind.

 

[Ajflyguy7]

Slavery is also addressed in the New Testament:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. (Ephesians 6:5-9)

Wow, doesn't that make slavery sound nice! I think I want to be a slave now!

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God doesn't drop a fine book out of the sky like the book of Mormon. I have not read the book of Mormon though. In Genesis God could have appeared to fallen Adam and Eve as a pillar of fire, fire of zeal and love, all consuming, also jealous. Then either it would have refined them or burned them up. Instead God works generationally to Noah. This implies fire is too fast for us.

After Noah there is Abraham and later Moses who worked carefully with the pillar of fire. And instills change in Israel, and has to compromise, allowing divorce and slavery.

Israel had the law for thousands of years, so it seems unreasonable and to a non believer, it is really up to chance. Paul the apostle describes the law as impossible to obey and the source of sin as it stirs people up as they hear it. They then think of sinning. The prophets had the Spirit and did better sometimes breaking the law by leading from within of the author.

Paul teaches us about freedom in the Spirit and being right by the law like the prophets by following the Spirit. Paul was a gentle revolutionary who did not come with a pillar of fire and drive people to submission or lead an army to turn over capitalist Rome into Christendom by force. John wrote about Rome in my previous post from Revelation. Rome's demise.

There is a progression over time from Israel in Egypt to Israel under Rome. The early church was not a greedy capitalist state. Their standards under Peter and John in Jerusalem was high. Paul was instilling that in Philemon and did not ask Onesimus to be freed but paid his debts and raised his place to brother among the fellows. In Acts we read of the equality expected among Christians, Hebrew and Grecian and financially. All had a plot of land under Moses. Luke 4 sets out Jesus' mission. Good news, freedom. James taught that the rich are not given a special place while the poor are told to sit on the floor.

I add that there are no surrounding nations from which to take slaves, all can now be God's people. There is a Lebanese bishop, Greeks and Chinese.. have bishops.

Paul and Peter were not able to revise Rome because Nero killed them and he was a psychopath. Rome instead broke down. But Christian principles applied, we advance and Wilberforce was right, slaves were not only treated well, but set free. And animals have the society for protection from cruelty to animals. RSPCA. Kids have free education or paid. Wilberforce's book is called Real Christianity. In print again after the movie release, Amazing Grace.

So it should not be surprising Christians advance and break the literal law. There were evil teachings that slowed us down, extreme control from the pope and witch hunts nonsense... but true believers emerged who loved God not money and won over.