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Jesus said not peace but sword?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Godistruth1, May 24, 2018.

  1. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    There seems to be one standard for his disciples, and another for himself?

    I have heard suggestions that such verses are metaphors, but such explanations are unconvincing to me. If the son of god was truly omniscient, I would ask why he didn't use a different, far more accurate & indisputable metaphor if that was the case? e.g. "the man who didn't gain usury using his master's money lost it all in the end and killed himself." instead of "bring them here and kill them in front of me."
     
  2. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    It's simple reading comprehension.

    Why should Matthew 10:34 be a metaphor? Well, when do we see Jesus LITERALLY carrying & using a sword? Answer: never. Let's not forget that He even directly admonished Peter for using his sword (John 18:10-11).

    Why is Luke 19:27 not literal? Because the text comes right out and says Jesus is telling a PARABLE (verse 11). A parable BY DEFINITION is not a literal story.
     
  3. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe Supporter

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    To get what is really meant all must read entirely through the full passage, and very often also the full book for some of the more deep passages.

    No other way. No amount of insight or wisdom will allow understanding without that total reading through the full gospel from chapter 1 verse 1, through all the verses, through to the end, fully. And with a truly listening attitude, wanting to learn new things one does not yet know.

    Amazingly even then we are not done learning from these same gospels.

    We have a term for this -- that the words are living.

    That when we read a Gospel like John or Matthew for even the 3rd or 5th time (!), that still we learn new things! It's truly amazing.

    If we are listening, then this happens.
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    When will Muslims, Hindus, JWs, and other religious persons be killed ?

    On earth is not the command. The second death, that is when.
     
  5. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    My apologies for the confusion: I was referring more to Lk 19:27 with my metaphor comment.

    Understood and agreed. However, parables are used to highlight lessons, and the lesson here in this verse is clearly that the king will order the death of those who refuse his reign. If the lesson should be "those who refuse his reign are killing themselves", then another parable should have been used.
     
  6. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    What do you think Luke 19:27 means?
     
  7. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe Supporter

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    Keeping in mind we learn more over time, and listening, we can begin Luke in chapter 1 verse 1, and immediately we are likely to be surprised and learn new things which we are ready to learn. Taking an advanced parable like this by itself isn't likely to make full sense to us if we haven't yet read extensively through the gospels with listening faith, but we can look at this complex parable if you like. Some background we learn in time is that Jesus initially was coming to save Israel from it's lostness, and all the people around Him at this moment are Jews also...

    11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’

    [The man of noble birth is Christ Jesus Himself, the distant country I think is heaven before the time of the 2nd coming.]

    14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’

    [As we learn in the gospel accounts, many Jews were rejecting Christ, but some were not, and both kinds are addressed in this parable. Among those accepting Christ, some would do well with the gifts of the spirit He would bestow on them.]

    15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

    [This seems to be the afterlife judgement, though it clearly can apply also here and now in ways.]

    16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

    17 “ ‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

    18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

    19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

    20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

    22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

    [The metaphor of money on deposit seems to mean doing at least the minimum of trusting Christ and following His commandments in one's own personal life even if one fails to evangelize others. Here the distrusting servant (who it seems believed but did not trust) actually did not want to even do the basic things Christ said to do, such as to "love one another" and "forgive your brother from your heart" for example. He didn't even earn the interest from putting his trust in Jesus and being changed by relying in his heart on trust in Jesus and the changing power on his heart and soul that trust would have caused.]

    24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

    25 “ ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

    26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ”

    [Here the 'enemies of mine' appear to be the Jews such as for instance some scribes and Pharisees (and other Jews) who in the gospel accounts we see specifically rejected Christ, the Messiah, even though He was clearly of God, from God. Of course this can also apply to any who fully learn the gospel message (and many do not), and also have understanding God exists, yet even with all of this still reject Him -- such having full understanding and rejecting Him are rejecting Good, and really rejecting God finally, would be condemned if they don't turn and repent.]
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  8. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    Thanks for your explanation; however I am more specifically interested in the how the punishment is done & who initiates it ("bring them here and kill them in front of me"), rather than who the punishment is for.
     
  9. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe Supporter

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    You are asking then about the afterlife Day of Judgement, when souls face an accounting before God for what they have done. This is one thing you learn about after you have faith, but a partial answer, which applies to those not yet having the gospel, yet still faced with their own conscience, is given in Romans chapter 2, verses 6-16, though again, the best understanding requires full reading of this book (and really a gospel also). Yet, you may find some help in seeing some pieces:

    1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

    5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

    6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”a

    7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

    12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

    This is a passage even that many Christians won't fully understand until they've read very fully through much of the New Testament, entire books fully, with a truly listening attitude, and with faith. But some things can be seen even early -- God judges fairly, with true fairness and justice, without any favoritism. All of this even before we go further and account for many other factors, such as how we are only held responsible only for what we understand (or our conscience clearly signals) -- chapter 4, verse 15, chapter 5, verse 13, and then further more about how Christ redeems us through faith, that trust that opens our hearts and allows us to be truly born anew of the Spirit, and changed, and our sins forgiven!
     
  10. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    Thanks again for your explanation; however I am more specifically interested in the how the punishment is done & who initiates it ("bring them here and kill them in front of me"), rather than who the punishment is for - or even (as you point out here) when the punishment is given.

    Thanks for sharing!
     
  11. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Except "killing themselves" is not the point, particularly not for that Iron Age culture. Those were not First World Snowflakes Jesus was talking to, tossing themselves off bridges because they were disappointed with life.

    You want to make the point that they would be accountable to themselves.

    Jesus' point is that all would be held accountable to a master...and very specifically not that they were only accountable to themselves.
     
  12. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    Would you then agree with the conclusion that the parable refers to Jesus who orders their death?
     
  13. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe Supporter

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    We don't know all details about the specifics how those who choose evil are thrown into the 'hell', the 'fire', were they will 'perish', be destroyed, in the 'second death'. (I take "perish" and "destroy" and "second death" to be literal, and mean exactly what they say, literally -- extinction, cessation, an eternal and final end -- though there are other views.) But that how won't really matter we can guess. Instead that outcome matters -- the second death, and the great regret beyond words those would experience before the final end. The key thing is that they don't gain Life, eternal life, which is for those who are innocent or made good or redeemed we know (even though we don't know everything about all unusual (or otherworldly) ways people can be brought to redemption -- knowing only clearly the Way, through Christ, we are told to follow -- but only have suggestive verses about some other possibilities, such as in 1 Peter chapter 3, verses 19-20, though perhaps the commentary by Ellicott has the unknown aspects correct, as it seems to me.)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  14. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    I'm not disputing that ... however, would you agree that the "who commands/initiates the slaying" clearly refers to Jesus in the Lk 19:27 parable?
     
  15. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe Supporter

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    We know that Jesus, One with God the Father, has been given all authority to judge us, as we read is given to Him in the gospels. And as above you saw in the Romans chapter 2 quote, and also more in these last two replies, there are many aspects to the entire situation about how that Judgement will go, and we don't know all things of course, but rather we know all things we need to know to be redeemed, born anew, by His amazing mercy and love.

    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
     
  16. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe Supporter

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    See, the natural outcome of the natural world is death.

    But Christ came to save us from death, and give us Life.
     
  17. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    No.

    A parable is not an allegory.
     
  18. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    Then who else could he be speaking of, then?
     
  19. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    A parable is not an allegory. There is no specific "who" represented by the characters of a parable. The story is told to teach a particular moral lesson.
     
  20. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    What is the particular, moral lesson of Luke 19:27?
     
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