Jesus Ordains Sin

[Ben johnson]

That has to be true --- if "Sovereign Predestination" exists.

In Jn6:70, Jesus said: "I chose you the TWELVE..."
In Jn15:16, Jesus told the Disciples: "I chose you (as Disciples) and ORDAINED that you bear fruit that remains".

"The twelve", includes Judas.

Judas had bad fruit; he stole, lied, and betrayed Christ. But AS one of the Twelve, he HAD to have been "ordained to bear fruit".

Therefore, Jesus ordained Judas' sin.

Did Jesus ordain Judas' sin, or was Judas ordained for GOOD deeds but had the ability to REJECT that ordination?

Before you answer:
"Jesus appeared to take away sins; in Him there is no sin." 1Jn3:5

Any answer of "Yes-Jesus-ordained-Judas'-sin", must explain how a perfect Christ (who HATES sin, who came to DESTROY sin), can ordain any sin...

 

[chestertonrules]

That has to be true --- if "Sovereign Predestination" exists.

In Jn6:70, Jesus said: "I chose you the TWELVE..."
In Jn15:16, Jesus told the Disciples: "I chose you (as Disciples) and ORDAINED that you bear fruit that remains".

"The twelve", includes Judas.

Judas had bad fruit; he stole, lied, and betrayed Christ. But AS one of the Twelve, he HAD to have been "ordained to bear fruit".

Therefore, Jesus ordained Judas' sin.

Did Jesus ordain Judas' sin, or was Judas ordained for GOOD deeds but had the ability to REJECT that ordination?

Before you answer:
"Jesus appeared to take away sins; in Him there is no sin." 1Jn3:5

Any answer of "Yes-Jesus-ordained-Judas'-sin", must explain how a perfect Christ (who HATES sin, who came to DESTROY sin), can ordain any sin...

Logic is not welcome here.

 

[Calminian]

That has to be true --- if "Sovereign Predestination" exists.

In Jn6:70, Jesus said: "I chose you the TWELVE..."
In Jn15:16, Jesus told the Disciples: "I chose you (as Disciples) and ORDAINED that you bear fruit that remains".

"The twelve", includes Judas.

Judas had bad fruit; he stole, lied, and betrayed Christ. But AS one of the Twelve, he HAD to have been "ordained to bear fruit".

Therefore, Jesus ordained Judas' sin.

Did Jesus ordain Judas' sin, or was Judas ordained for GOOD deeds but had the ability to REJECT that ordination?

Before you answer:
"Jesus appeared to take away sins; in Him there is no sin." 1Jn3:5

Any answer of "Yes-Jesus-ordained-Judas'-sin", must explain how a perfect Christ (who HATES sin, who came to DESTROY sin), can ordain any sin...

Can you please define ordained? Because even in an arminian system, God must ordain all future choices of men, even those which violate his moral will. If you believe God has foreknowledge and the He knows about all future sins, God must have ordained them. I don't believe God choses them to happen, nor requires them to happen, but certainly He ordains them. Everything that happens must pass through the will of God. Unless of course you view the word differently.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Of course God ortdained sin. It says he did so in so many different verses of the Bible. He ordained pharaoh to sin by refusing to release his people. He ordained Assyria to sin by attacking Israel. He ordained Babylon to sin by attacking Judah. We can disagree on what that means for the believer today, but to say God did not ordain at least these three sins is simply to blot inconvenient verses out of the Bible.

And no, I don't have to "explain" how this can be. It's not my Job to explain how God is just. It's my job as a Christian to just accept that he is. I seek to understand him better, but I cannot understand him at all if I do not first and foremost accept that everything he has revealed about himself is true.

 

[nobdysfool]

Can you please define ordained? Because even in an arminian system, God must ordain all future choices of men, even those which violate his moral will. If you believe God has foreknowledge and the He knows about all future sins, God must have ordained them. I don't believe God choses them to happen, nor requires them to happen, but certainly He ordains them. Everything that happens must pass through the will of God. Unless of course you view the word differently.

Lots of luck on that. The idea that God would ordain anything other than sweetness and light, good things, and cotton candy, doesn't fit into his paradigm. At all.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Sorry Ben,

Jesus wasn't talking to Judas in John 15. Its clear that Judas had already left earlier in the evening:

John 13:30-31 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night. 31 When he was gone, Jesus said...

After Judas left Jesus was talking to the remaining disciples through chapters 14-15-16.


LDG

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Calminian:
Can you please define ordained? Because even in an Arminian system, God must ordain all future choices of men, even those which violate his moral will. If you believe God has foreknowledge and the He knows about all future sins, God must have ordained them. I don't believe God choses them to happen, nor requires them to happen, but certainly He ordains them. Everything that happens must pass through the will of God. Unless of course you view the word differently.​

The English definition of "ordained", is "decree/establish/enact". The GREEK in Jn15 ("tithemi") is "set-forth, establish, ordain".

God can set up the circumstances (as in placing Jesus when and where He would be crucified) --- but He tempts no one, and causes no sin. Perfectly and eternally faithful, every temptation is accompanied by a means of escape.

All sin is OUR choice...

 

[Ben johnson]

QUoted by Epipheskei:
Of course God ortdained sin. It says he did so in so many different verses of the Bible. He ordained pharaoh to sin by refusing to release his people. He ordained Assyria to sin by attacking Israel. He ordained Babylon to sin by attacking Judah. We can disagree on what that means for the believer today, but to say God did not ordain at least these three sins is simply to blot inconvenient verses out of the Bible.​

He ordains the circumstances --- but men decide their own sin. God tempts no one, causes no sin, and decides NO one's condemnation; each man receives eternal life by his own choice, or conversly WRATH by his own choice. James1:13; 1Cor10:12-13; Rom2:6-8.

Quote:
And no, I don't have to "explain" how this can be. It's not my job to explain how God is just. It's my job as a Christian to just accept that He is. I seek to understand him better, but I cannot understand him at all if I do not first and foremost accept that everything he has revealed about himself is true.​

It's your job (and I say this fully respectfully), to correctly understand Scripture.

As someone recently said, "we cannot simply blot inconvenient verses out of the Bible".

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by LamorakDesGalis:
Sorry Ben,

Jesus wasn't talking to Judas in John 15. Its clear that Judas had already left earlier in the evening:

John 13:30-31 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night. 31 When he was gone, Jesus said...

After Judas left Jesus was talking to the remaining disciples through chapters 14-15-16.
​

To make your point, you would have to disassociate Jn6:70, from Jn15:16. "I chose you the TWELVE". Whether or not Judas was in audience in Jn15, there is nothing in Scripture to convey he was chosen any differently than the others.

FURTHER, the context of Jn6:67-70, is holding out Judas as the example of those WHO COULD leave.

Just like the OTHER disciples left, 6:60. See also Acts20:29-30. What does "not-sparing-the-flock", and "lead-away-disciples" mean???

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
Lots of luck on that. The idea that God would ordain anything other than sweetness and light, good things, and cotton candy, doesn't fit into his paradigm. At all.​

Call it what you will --- God (neither the Father, nor Jesus, nor the Spirit), cannot sponsor/cause/approve-of sin.

Ever.

 

[MamaZ]

God uses sinful men for His purposes. Men are sinful because they are born sinful.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Quoted by LamorakDesGalis:
Sorry Ben,

Jesus wasn't talking to Judas in John 15. Its clear that Judas had already left earlier in the evening:

John 13:30-31 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night. 31 When he was gone, Jesus said...

After Judas left Jesus was talking to the remaining disciples through chapters 14-15-16.
​

To make your point, you would have to disassociate Jn6:70, from Jn15:16. "I chose you the TWELVE". Whether or not Judas was in audience in Jn15, there is nothing in Scripture to convey he was chosen any differently than the others.

No, the fact is Scripture does treat Judas differently, and it does distinguish him from the other apostles - it repeatedly mentions him as the betrayer long before the action took place. Being one of the twelve is irrelevant to your point, because Jesus Himself called Judas a devil:

John 6:70-71 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Also Satan entered Judas:
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

And of course there is Matthew 27:5-10, where the actions of Judas and its consequences were specifically foretold in Scripture. Judas was obviously a special case.

And then we also have the verse itself - John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit-- fruit that will last.

I think its clear that Jesus was talking to the 11 apostles and not Judas. Judas did not have any "lasting fruit." How can someone Jesus called a "devil" have any lasting fruit? From Judas there was only betrayal, stealing and remorse.


LDG

 

[beloved57]

Jesus wasn't talking to Judas in John 15.

amen, neither in jn 17..as you have shown, he had left to do his dastardly deed..he returns with his crew here jn 18:

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.

2And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
3Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? 5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

Now, going back to Jesus prayer in Jn 17, imagine the impression it had to his disciples mind, when they heard this effectual fervent prayer of Jesus, and heard these words jn 17:

12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Men are sinful because they are born sinful.​

No. Rm5:12 says "All men died because all men sinned."

Through Adam, we inherited a sin nature; we did not inherit actual sins. Our condemnation is because of our OWN deeds --- and really not even our deeds, but the unbelief that causes sinful deeds. Hope I conveyed that well.

 

[beloved57]

Can you please define ordained? Because even in an arminian system, God must ordain all future choices of men, even those which violate his moral will. If you believe God has foreknowledge and the He knows about all future sins, God must have ordained them. I don't believe God choses them to happen, nor requires them to happen, but certainly He ordains them. Everything that happens must pass through the will of God. Unless of course you view the word differently.

Yes God ordains sin, he is the First Cause of everything, all secondary causes recieve their orders from God..and Jesus is God..

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by LamorakDesGalis:
No, the fact is Scripture does treat Judas differently, and it does distinguish him from the other apostles - it repeatedly mentions him as the betrayer long before the action took place. Being one of the twelve is irrelevant to your point, because Jesus Himself called Judas a devil:

John 6:70-71 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Also Satan entered Judas:
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

And of course there is Matthew 27:5-10, where the actions of Judas and its consequences were specifically foretold in Scripture. Judas was obviously a special case.

And then we also have the verse itself - John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit-- fruit that will last.

I think its clear that Jesus was talking to the 11 apostles and not Judas. Judas did not have any "lasting fruit." How can someone Jesus called a "devil" have any lasting fruit? From Judas there was only betrayal, stealing and remorse. ​

So Judas was "not really chosen to be a Disciple"?

Please explain how, in Jn6:67-70, Jesus is NOT saying: "No, Peter, ANY of you CAN leave, just like ONE of you ALREADY IS leaving".

How is that not Jesus' clear response to Peter?

Jesus: "Are YOU leaving TOO?"
Peter: "No; we know You're the Messiah."
Jesus: "I chose ALL TWELVE of you, and ONE of you is a devil..."

 

[beloved57]

Jesus: "Are YOU leaving TOO?"
Peter: "No; we know You're the Messiah."
Jesus: "I chose ALL TWELVE of you, and ONE of you is a devil..."

No one i can see is disputing this, its your blindness to what Jesus says about one of the ones he has chosen..

that one of them is a devil..

and that one was a unbeliever..

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

It amazes me to see you disregard Jesus words here and see only what you want to see to make a invalid point, I think it shows the truth of this:

2 thess 2:

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This should show true believers, how accurate this is, you are a prime example of how this works..

 

[Ben johnson]

Was Judas somehow chosen differently than the other 11?

Why did Jesus say what He said in Jn6:70? In answer to Peter --- was Jesus saying something other than "ONE of you HAS left"?

 

[jmacvols]

That has to be true --- if "Sovereign Predestination" exists.

In Jn6:70, Jesus said: "I chose you the TWELVE..."
In Jn15:16, Jesus told the Disciples: "I chose you (as Disciples) and ORDAINED that you bear fruit that remains".

"The twelve", includes Judas.

Judas had bad fruit; he stole, lied, and betrayed Christ. But AS one of the Twelve, he HAD to have been "ordained to bear fruit".

Therefore, Jesus ordained Judas' sin.

Did Jesus ordain Judas' sin, or was Judas ordained for GOOD deeds but had the ability to REJECT that ordination?

Before you answer:
"Jesus appeared to take away sins; in Him there is no sin." 1Jn3:5

Any answer of "Yes-Jesus-ordained-Judas'-sin", must explain how a perfect Christ (who HATES sin, who came to DESTROY sin), can ordain any sin...

No, Mt 27:4-"I have sinned."

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

So Judas was "not really chosen to be a Disciple"?

I really don't understand your question. I said Scriptures repeatedly distinguished Judas from the other apostles.

Please explain how, in Jn6:67-70, Jesus is NOT saying: "No, Peter, ANY of you CAN leave, just like ONE of you ALREADY IS leaving".

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

How is that not Jesus' clear response to Peter?

???

Jesus: "Are YOU leaving TOO?"
Peter: "No; we know You're the Messiah."
Jesus: "I chose ALL TWELVE of you, and ONE of you is a devil..."

And I said Jesus Himself called Judas a devil. How can someone that Jesus Himself called a devil be saved? How can they bear any lasting fruit?


LDG