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Featured JESUS is not the archangel Michael !

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by robycop3, Jun 13, 2020.

  1. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    There are a couple of occasions in the OT where it is thought that a heavenly being who is described as "an angel of God", or "someone who looks like a god", was in fact an appearance by the pre-incarnate Christ - e.g the 3 men who were flung into the fiery furnace, and one of Abraham's visitors. That doesn't mean that every occasion where an angel appears, it is Jesus.

    There may well be an angel called Michael - just as there is one called Gabriel.
    That doesn't mean that he is the same as the 2nd person of the Trinity, the eternal Son of God who was given the name Jesus. He was given that name when he was born as a human being. His name means Saviour; he was born to die and reconcile us to God.

    An angel is a created being.
    God is Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    An angel will never have more authority than God. That's what Lucifer wanted, why he rebelled and why he was thrown out of heaven.

    The writer of Hebrews tells us that the Son is greater than angels.
  2. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    The Holy Trinity - the Father, the Spirit and Michael?? :D
    If God the Son had had a name, he would not have been given another one. And if it was vital he be called Jesus, meaning Saviour, then surely he would have previously at least been called Joshua?
  3. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    United States
    True, there are times when angels appear and it is not the pre-incarnate Christ. However, there are times when the pre-incarnate Christ appears, and it calls him an angel, such as the angel of Yahweh appearing in the bush and telling Moses he is God/Yahweh

    the pre-incarnate Christ is called an angel many times.
  4. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    United States
    The pre-incarnate Christ was called El-Shaddai, the Word of Yahweh, and even Yahweh in the Old Testament, yet when we refer to him now, we call him by his human name. It doesn’t change what/who he was prior to Him becoming a man.

    if Michael is the pre-incarnate Christ, it wouldn’t change a thing.
  5. ChetSinger

    ChetSinger Well-Known Member

    None of my bibles say "first of the chief princes". Can you identify those that do?
  6. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    United States
    The word used where it says “one” in English is translated as “first” at least 36 times in the Old Testament. You can verify this on BlueLetterBible.org

    Michael is the highest ranking of all heavenly powers, thus making him first of the chief princes.
  7. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    United States
    Christ returns with the voice of the archangel:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16
  8. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    Yes it would.
    An angel is an angel; the eternal Son of God is the eternal Son of God - through whom ALL things (including the angels) were made.
    Hebrews 1:4 says "for he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs."
    The writer asks how many angels were referred to as his Son? He says in Hebrews 1:14 that angels are ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation. The Son is the One through whom salvation is given.
    The whole message of Hebrews 1 is that Jesus is superior to the angels.

    "The archangel Michael = Jesus, the Son of God," is not a Christian doctrine.
  9. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    United States
    The pre-incarnate Christ is called an angel in the OT, yet we know he is superior to the angels. If Michael is another title and name for the pre-incarnate Christ, then it lines up with Christ being an angel, yet being superior to the angels.
  10. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    United States
    When Michael stands up at the end of time, the dead rise and are judged.

    interestingly enough, when Christ returns, the dead will rise, and be judged.

    Daniel 12:1-2
    John 5:25-29
  11. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    United States
    ABBA (Romans 8:15)
    ADVOCATE (I John 2:1 kjv)
    ALMIGHTY (Genesis 17:1)
    ALL IN ALL (Colossians 3:11)
    ALPHA (Revelation 22:13)
    AMEN (Revelation 3:14)
    ANCIENT OF DAYS (Daniel 7:9)
    ANOINTED ONE (Psalm 2:2)
    APOSTLE (Hebrews 3:1)
    ARM OF THE LORD (Isaiah 53:1)
    AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH (Hebrews 12:2)
    AUTHOR OF PEACE (1 Cor. 14:33)
    AVENGER (1 Thessalonians 4:6)

    BEGINNING (Revelation 21:6)
    BISHOP OF SOULS (1 Peter 2:25)
    BLESSED & HOLY RULER (1 Timothy 6:15)
    BRANCH (Jeremiah 33:15)
    BREAD OF GOD (John 6:33)
    BREAD OF LIFE (John 6:35)
    BREATH OF LIFE (Genesis 2:7, Revelation 11:11)
    BRIDEGROOM (Isaiah 62:5)
    BRIGHT MORNING STAR (Revelation 22:16)
    BUCKLER (2 Sam.22:31 kjv,Psalm 18:2 kjv, Psalm 18:30 kjv,Proverbs 2:7 kjv)

    CAPTAIN OF SALVATION (Hebrews 2:10)
    CARPENTER (Mark 6:3)
    CHIEF SHEPHERD (1 Peter 5:4)
    CHOSEN ONE (Isaiah 42:1)
    CHRIST (Matthew 22:42)
    CHRIST OF GOD (Luke 9:20)
    CHRIST THE LORD (Luke 2:11)
    CHRIST, SON OF LIVING GOD (Matthew 16:16)
    COMFORTER (John 14:26 kjv)
    COMMANDER (Isaiah 55:4)
    CONSUMING FIRE (Deut. 4:24, Heb. 12:29)
    CORNERSTONE (Isaiah 28:16)
    COUNSELOR (Isaiah 9:6)
    CREATOR (1 Peter 4:19)
    CROWN OF BEAUTY (Isaiah 28:5)

    DAYSPRING (Luke 1:78)
    DELIVERER (Romans 11:26)
    DIADEM OF BEAUTY (Isaiah 28:5)
    DOOR (John 10:7 kjv)
    DWELLING PLACE (Psalm 90:1)

    ELECT ONE (Isaiah 42:1)
    EMMANUEL (Matthew 1:23 kjv)
    END (Revelation 21:6)
    ETERNAL GOD (Deut. 33:27)
    ETERNAL LIFE (1 John 5:20)
    ETERNAL SPIRIT (Hebrews 9:14)
    EVERLASTING GOD (Genesis 21:33)
    EXCELLENT (Psalm 148:13 kjv)

    FAITHFUL & TRUE (Revelation 19:11)
    FAITHFUL WITNESS (Revelation 1:5)
    FATHER (Matthew 6:9)
    FIRSTBORN (Rom.8:29, Rev.1:5, Col.1:15)
    FIRSTFRUITS (1 Cor.15:20-23)
    FORTRESS (Jeremiah 16:19)
    FOUNDATION (1 Cor. 3:11)
    FRIEND (Matthew 11:19)
    FULLERS’ SOAP (Malachi 3:2 kjv)

    GENTLE WHISPER (1 Kings 19:12)
    GIFT OF GOD (John 4:10)
    GLORY OF THE LORD (Isaiah 40:5)
    GOD (Genesis 1:1)
    GOD ALMIGHTY (Genesis 17:1)
    GOD OF THE WHOLE EARTH (Isaiah 54:5)
    GOD OVER ALL (Romans 9:5)
    GOD WHO SEES ME (Genesis 16:13)
    GOODNESS (Psalm 144:2 kjv)
    GOOD SHEPHERD (John 10:11)
    GOVERNOR (Psalm 22:28 kjv)
    GREAT HIGH PRIEST (Hebrews 4:14)
    GREAT SHEPHERD (Hebrews 13:20)
    GUIDE (Psalm 48:14)

    HEAD OF THE BODY (Colossians 1:18)
    HEAD OF THE CHURCH (Ephesians 5:23)
    HEIR OF ALL THINGS (Hebrews 1:2)
    HIDING PLACE (Psalm 32:7)
    HIGHEST (Luke 1:76)
    HIGH PRIEST (Hebrews 3:1)
    HIGH PRIEST FOREVER (Hebrews 6:20)
    HOLY GHOST (John 14:26)
    HOLY ONE (Acts 2:27)
    HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL (Isaiah 49:7)
    HOLY SPIRIT (John 15:26)
    HOPE (Titus 2:13)
    HORN OF SALVATION (Luke 1:69)
    HUSBAND (Isaiah 54:5, Jer. 31:32, Hosea 2:16)

    I AM (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58)
    IMAGE OF GOD (2 Cor. 4:4)
    IMAGE OF HIS PERSON (Hebrews 1:3 kjv)
    IMMANUEL (Isaiah 7:14)
    INTERCESSOR (Romans 8:26,27,34 Hebrews 7:25)

    JAH (Psalm 68:4 kjv)
    JEALOUS (Exodus 34:14 kjv)
    JEHOVAH (Psalm 83:18 kjv)
    JESUS (Matthew 1:21)
    JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD (Romans 6:23)
    JUDGE (Isaiah 33:22, Acts 10:42)
    JUST ONE (Acts 22:14)

    KEEPER (Psalm 121:5)
    KING (Zechariah 9:9)
    KING ETERNAL (1 Timothy 1:17)
    KING OF GLORY (Psalm 24:10)
    KING OF JEWS (Matthew 27:11)
    KING OF KINGS (1 Timothy 6:15)
    KING OF SAINTS (Revelation 15:3)

    LAMB OF GOD (John 1:29)
    LAST ADAM (1 Cor. 15:45)
    LAWGIVER (Isaiah 33:22)
    LEADER (Isaiah 55:4)
    LIFE (John 14:6)
    LIGHT OF THE WORLD (John 8:12)
    LIKE AN EAGLE (Deut. 32:11)
    LILY OF THE VALLEYS (Song 2:1)
    LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH (Revelation 5:5)
    LIVING GOD (Daniel 6:20)
    LIVING STONE (1 Peter 2:4)
    LIVING WATER (John 4:10)
    LORD (John 13:13)
    LORD GOD ALMIGHTY (Revelation 15:3)
    LORD GOD OF HOSTS (Jeremiah 15:16)
    LORD JESUS CHRIST (1 Cor. 15:57)
    LORD OF ALL (Acts 10:36)
    LORD OF GLORY (1 Cor. 2:8)
    LORD OF HARVEST (Matthew 9:38)
    LORD OF HOSTS (Haggai 1:5)
    LORD OF LORDS (1 Tim. 6:15)
    LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Jeremiah 23:6)
    LOVE (1 John 4:8)
    LOVINGKINDNESS (Psalm 144:2)

    MAKER (Job 35:10, Psalm 95:6)
    MAJESTY ON HIGH (Hebrews 1:3)
    MAN OF SORROWS (Isaiah 53:3)
    MASTER (Luke 5:5)
    MEDIATOR (1 Timothy 2:5)
    MERCIFUL GOD (Jeremiah 3:12)
    MESSIAH (John 4:25)
    MIGHTY GOD (Isaiah 9:6)
    MIGHTY ONE (Isaiah 60:16)
    MOST UPRIGHT (Isaiah 26:7)

    NAZARENE (Matthew 2:23)

    OFFSPRING OF DAVID (Revelation 22:16)
    OMEGA (Revelation 22:13)
    ONLY BEGOTTEN SON (John 1:18 kjv)
    OUR PASSOVER LAMB (1 Cor. 5:7)
    OUR PEACE (Ephesians 2:14)

    PHYSICIAN (Luke 4:23)
    PORTION (Psalm 73:26,Psalm 119:57)
    POTENTATE (1 Timothy 6:15)
    POTTER (Isaiah 64:8)
    POWER OF GOD (1 Cor. 1:24)
    PRINCE OF LIFE (Acts 3:15)
    PRINCE OF PEACE (Isaiah 9:6)
    PROPHET (Acts 3:22)
    PROPITIATION (1John 2:2, 1John 4:10)
    PURIFIER (Malachi 3:3)

    QUICKENING SPIRIT (1 Corinthians 15:45 kjv)

    RABBONI (TEACHER) (John 20:16)
    REDEEMER (Job 19:25)
    REFINER’S FIRE (Malachi 3:2)
    REFUGE (Jeremiah 16:19)
    RESURRECTION (John 11:25)
    REWARDER (Hebrews 11:6)
    RIGHTEOUS ONE (1 John 2:1)
    ROCK (1 Cor.10:4)
    ROOT OF DAVID (Rev. 22:16)
    ROSE OF SHARON (Song 2:1)
    RULER OVER ISRAEL (Micah 5:2)

    SAVIOR (Luke 2:11)
    SCEPTRE (Numbers 24:17)
    SEED (Genesis 3:15)
    SERVANT (Isaiah 42:1)
    SHADE (Psalm 121:5)
    SHEPHERD OF OUR SOULS (1Peter 2:25)
    SHIELD (Genesis 15:1)
    SHILOH (Genesis 49:10)
    SONG (Exodus 15:2, Isaiah 12:2)
    SON OF DAVID (Matthew 1:1)
    SON OF GOD (Matthew 27:54)
    SON OF MAN (Matthew 8:20)
    SON OF THE MOST HIGH (Luke 1:32)
    SOURCE (Hebrews 5:9)
    SPIRIT (John 4:24)
    SPIRIT OF ADOPTION (Romans 8:15)
    SPIRIT OF GOD (Genesis 1:2)
    SPIRIT OF TRUTH (John 14:17,15:26,16:13)
    STAR OUT OF JACOB (Numbers 24:17)
    STRENGTH (Jeremiah 16:19)
    STONE (1 Peter 2:8)
    STONE OF ISRAEL (Genesis 49:24)
    STRONGHOLD (Nahum 1:7)
    STRONG TOWER (Proverbs 18:10)
    SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (Malachi 4:2)

    TEACHER (John 13:13)
    TEMPLE (Revelation 21:22)
    THE ONE (Psalm 144:2,10)
    TRUE LIGHT (John 1:9)
    TRUE WITNESS (Revelation 3:14)
    TRUTH (John 14:6)

    VINE (John 15:5)

    WALL OF FIRE (Zechariah 2:5)
    WAY (John 14:6)
    WISDOM OF GOD (1 Cor. 1:24)
    WITNESS (Isaiah 55:4)
    WONDERFUL (Isaiah 9:6)
    WORD (John 1:1)
    WORD OF GOD (Revelation 19:13)

    YAH (Isaiah 12:2 kjv, Psalm 68:4 nkjv)
  12. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    I see no Scriptural evidence for this, only supposition.
  13. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    I'm not talking about his titles, or who he is - I'm talking about a human name.

    But thank you for posting those verses about Christ; very uplifting.
  14. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    United States
    You acknowledge that Christ was in fact an angel in the OT, yet you have no problem distinguishing him from the other angels now that is he a human being.

    that is why it’s not problematic for me that Michael is another name in the OT for Christ, because Christ was called an angel, yet he is above all other angels.

    From what I’ve seen, most people that think Christ is Michael believe that Michael and the Angel of Yahweh are the same person, not that there’s a distinction between the 2.

    people tend to reject this idea of Christ being Michael at first because of the preconceived notion of who Michael is, based off of doctrine, and not on what the scriptures actually say.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  15. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    United States
    and is described as an angel (messenger) of the Lord in the OT
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  16. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    United States
    In Relationship
    If Jesus were St. Michael the Archangel, why did none of the holy Apostles, none of the fathers, no one in the ancient history of the Church believe this to be the case? Instead, Michael is always regarded as just one of the archangels, a creature, subordinate to God.

  17. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    I may not have made it clear - sometimes in the OT the term "angel of the Lord" is used. Some people think this MAY in fact refer to a brief appearance by the pre-incarnate Christ.

    That is not at all the same as saying that in the OT, when they write "angel" they mean Jesus.

    ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    God the Father created everything in the heavens and on the earth. He did this through the Word, when the Spirit of God was present, Genesis 1:1-2, John 1:1, John 1:14, Colossians 1:16. Note, "all things in heaven and on the earth", created by him and for him. Revelation 5:11 describes thousands of angels circling the throne of God, singing praises to the Lamb of God.

    The archangel Michael did not create himself and does not worship himself
  18. ChetSinger

    ChetSinger Well-Known Member

    Let's think about this for a minute. It sounds like you're asking me to disregard this verse in every bible I have and replace its meaning with your own.

    Is that true and are you serious? If so, I'd like to know your qualifications to translate ancient Hebrew.

    PROPHECYKID Veteran Supporter

    Let me just for the record state that the position of JWs and SDA's on this is slightly different in how they arrive at this. JWs believe that Jesus is a created beign. SDA's do not believe that. SDA's believe that whenever Jesus takes on the role of leader of the angelic armies, his title is Michael the Archangel. One of the evidences for this is Daniel 12:1 where it says that Michael shall stand up for "his" people. Michael is also referred to as the great prince. Well Daniel 9:25 or 26 refers to Jesus as Messiah the Prince. Jesus is also called the Prince of peace. However, its all terms and titles. I don't think its that much of a big deal in the case of SDAs because its not bringing Jesus down to the level of an angel. JWs clearly believe that Jesus is not divine and not God and that is dangerous.
  20. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    New Zealand
    He was the WORD (Word of God) and angel(s) were messenger of the Word...Not the Word (Lord) or God (Father)...
    Acts; 7:38..He was in the assembly in the wilderness With the Angel who spoke to him (Moses) on Mount Sinai and with our ancestors....