Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

[PaleHorse]

Mat 8:

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28​

When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, c two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
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30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

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He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.


Drive us out? He drove them out with a word because he had authority. They were sent out by his word because he had authority. They proclaimed he was the Son of God because it was true and he had the authority. Why then does Jesus have to actually fight when he has the authority with a word to do things. Micheal fought....there was a struggle....Jesus spoke and there was obidence...


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I guess the question is actually what the nature of the war in heaven consisted of. To find that let's look to the original Greek of Rev 12:7:
The word for "war" in the Greek is polemos, which not only means war (in the usual sense) but also a dispute, a quarrel, a fight. (Strong's Lex #4171). Further in the verse, the same word polemos is used for the two occurances of "fought".

So, in taking into account the verses from Matthew 8 that you posted there is no discrepency; only a small question of how extreme the fight waged. When Christ cast out the demons in Matt 8 there are two things we must bear in mind; 1) there was most certainly a dispute between Christ and them, and 2) there demons were not Satan himself - they were the lesser minions, if you will. As such, the degree of the battle would have been a little different in the heavenly "war" (where Satan and his millions of angels were) as opposed to the casting out of a few demons from a person.

Excellent question though! Thank you.

 

[dvd_holc]

I don't know the true extend of abilities of Satan nor the spescific demons in this time....also then there was once it said "legion for we are many"....I would also say that Jesus authority over satan is still the same.

Mat 4:
10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

11​

Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Satan did as Jesus said by words...

My point is that Jesus but spoke and they did (even when it was a legion). Now, I can see that a dispute happened/happens in Heaven, but by Jesus own words he can order Satan to depart from him...why then would he have to have the angels help reference to Micheal and the angels? ​

 

[PaleHorse]

I don't know the true extend of abilities of Satan nor the spescific demons in this time....also then there was once it said "legion for we are many"....I would also say that Jesus authority over satan is still the same.

Mat 4:
10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

11​

Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.



Satan did as Jesus said by words...

My point is that Jesus but spoke and they did (even when it was a legion). Now, I can see that a dispute happened/happens in Heaven, but by Jesus own words he can order Satan to depart from him...why then would he have to have the angels help reference to Micheal and the angels?

​

Honestly, that is a question you can ask Him when we get to heaven. We have to understand that the book of Revelation is not a snap-shot picture of the occurances of what transpired in heaven (either the past-tense nor future events it talks about) - the language is highly figurative, metaphorical and symbolic - the fact that there was even a dispute in heaven would be, contrasted to the peace a serenity of heaven, quite harsh. The "war" they had should not be likened to our perception of what a "war" should constitute. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the "war" merely consisted of Christ having to order Satan and his minions to leave and cast them from heaven - wouldn't that be enough?

 

[dvd_holc]

I look forward to the time to completely understand.

I guess it could be...and, it has to with my human perception of dispute, war, struggle, etc...

 

[2tim]

It is interesting to note that in the New Testament Greek, the word translated “Captain” is “archegos”, One that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter.

Thank God that in matters such as the second death and the wrath of the Father without mixture for sin, Jesus was our Captain - our Predecessor in the matter.

Thank God that He is our Example.

2Tim

 

[2tim]

Who was “The Angel of the LORD” in the Old Testament?
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Genesis 16:10, “And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.”



Genesis 22:11 and 12, “And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.”



Exodus 3:2 “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.”



Numbers 22:31, “Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.”



Judges 2:1, 4, “And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.”



Judges 6:12, 14, “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?”



Judges 13:21, 22, “But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.



2 Samuel 24:16, “And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.” (See 1Chronicles 21:16)



1 Chronicles 21:16, “And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.”



Psalms 34:7, “The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.”



Isaiah 37:35, 36, “For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David’s sake. Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.



Zechariah 3:1, 3, 4, “And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.



Zechariah 12:8, “In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.”

I'll let you come to your own conlusions, lead by the Spirit I pray.

2Tim

 

[statrei]

I'll let you come to your own conlusions, lead by the Spirit I pray.
2Tim

A list of occurrences of the word angel does not solve the problem. It is a pity that we spend so much time trying to dicipher snipppet in the Bible without considering what Jesus said is central. He came to correct our knowledge of the Father; this is life eternal. Instead of bringing out the big guns to show that our position has support, we should be asking "What does this say about the Master?"

 

[remnantrob]

the toughest argument i've received on this study is the Daniel 10:13 one/first debate. There were a couple of arguments about the Jude 9 I believe about rebuking satan in the Lord's name and I gave them the Zach. 3:2. I'd welcome a great response for the Daniel 10:13. I presented the first for one theory and It was thrown back at me to mean that my interpretation could mean that there were other archangels. so I'm still searching patiently.

 

[2tim]

A list of occurrences of the word angel does not solve the problem. It is a pity that we spend so much time trying to dicipher snipppet in the Bible without considering what Jesus said is central. He came to correct our knowledge of the Father; this is life eternal. Instead of bringing out the big guns to show that our position has support, we should be asking "What does this say about the Master?"

My dear brother in Jesus,

First of all, the Scriptures I posted are far more significant than a mere list of "snippits of the Bible". They are also more carefully selected than "occurrence of the word angel."

Secondly, it is - respectfully - presumptuous of you to imagine that you have any way of knowing what we have or have not considered.

But most importantly, and mark this:

The world is full to bursting with people who are willing to tell others what they should be doing when what we really need is DOERS.

If you see a way to augment what I have presented here, rather than point to the need - FILL IT.

Add your gifts to mine, rather than pointing out how much I need you, my brother.

Hope I haven't offended,


2Tim

 

[statrei]

If you see a way to augment what I have presented here, rather than point to the need - FILL IT.

Add your gifts to mine, rather than pointing out how much I need you, my brother.

Hope I haven't offended,


2Tim

That is what I did when I suggested that we should always ask what our beliefs say about the Master. Only the first sentence was addressed directly to you.

 

[2tim]

My appologies then. That wasn't clear to me.
Well at any rate I agree with you. So. What does it say about the Father, that Jesus is the Captain of His host?

IMHO, I delivered a sermon once called "O Captain! My Captain!" (for the Whitman poem about Lincoln). The central point of that message was essentially that there is something special about "the Captain." I think it says something about our Father that He chose this particular term, role, figure, archetype, whathaveyou.

EDIT: Besides, look at the first post. He asked.

2T

 

[remnantrob]

Hey 2tim, Happy Sabbath! Just wondering if you had another interpretation of the Daniel 10:13 argument.

Thanks in advance

 

[2tim]

Happy Sabbath to YOU brother. LEt me prayerfully look at that and I'll be right back! Look here, I'll just edit this post if I have anything to offer.

OH SURE. DAN 10:13 - THE WORDS TRANSLATED "ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES" THERE MIGHT ALSO BE RENDERED "FIRST OF THE CHIEF HEADS" (SEE YOUNGS LITERAL I THINK...)

PUTS A DIFFERENT MEANING INTO IT DOESN'T IT?


2T

 

[honorthesabbath]

Happy Sabbath to YOU brother. LEt me prayerfully look at that and I'll be right back! Look here, I'll just edit this post if I have anything to offer.

OH SURE. DAN 10:13 - THE WORDS TRANSLATED "ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES" THERE MIGHT ALSO BE RENDERED "FIRST OF THE CHIEF HEADS" (SEE YOUNGS LITERAL I THINK...)

PUTS A DIFFERENT MEANING INTO IT DOESN'T IT?


2T

Amen Tim, so many people misunderstand several bible texts because the old English words and terms are actually the opposite as we use today. For instance, when debating with those of othr faiths, they always use this text to try and prove that we do not need to obey the 10 commandments any more.
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Now on the surface, it sure looks like the bible IS saying that Jesus "ended the commandments". BUt upon further investigation we find these texts......

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: ( on LOVE hangs all the law and the prophets)

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (you mean we have to get rid of faith to get salvation?)

Js. 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.( OH NO!! Jesus is no more???)
The word end in these passages is translated frome the telos meaning "goal".

Years ago I was working at a hospital that had employed some nurses from England. At that time I was a smoker and always had my cigarettes and lighter in my pocket!! (yuke I know!!! lol). So one night (I worked the night shift) this English nurse and I walked down to a patients room. We wanted to check the drop rate of the IV, but the room was dark. So she turned to me and said, "my I use your torch?" @$#%$^$& What?? I asked, my what?? And she repeated, "your torch, your torch". So, I handed her my lighter!!! Well, she looked at me as if I had lost my mind. I was totally confused. Then very quietly she giggled and so, "no no--not that--I need that light that you have in your pocket with the button on it"!! ROFL--OH!! Then I understood, she was asking for my FLASHLIGHT!! See how the English language even in this day is so greatly varied?? And people think that they can so easily understand the KJV when it is written in OLD English?? Thank God for the concordances.

 

[SpeakNow]

I really like your signature Honor.

When a man or woman is honestly mistaken and hears the truth, they will either quit being mistaken, or they will cease to be honest.

 

[2tim]

Amen Tim, so many people misunderstand several bible texts because the old English words and terms are actually the opposite as we use today. For instance, when debating with those of othr faiths, they always use this text to try and prove that we do not need to obey the 10 commandments any more.
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Now on the surface, it sure looks like the bible IS saying that Jesus "ended the commandments". BUt upon further investigation we find these texts......

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: ( on LOVE hangs all the law and the prophets)

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (you mean we have to get rid of faith to get salvation?)

Js. 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.( OH NO!! Jesus is no more???)
The word end in these passages is translated frome the telos meaning "goal".

AMEN!
This is a gret study and parallels one I conducted by self and incorporated into a response to some lierature my Mormon friends left with me. (They don't come back much any more. Maybe it was the powerpoint presentaion I had waiting. Anyway...)

Much of it repeats what you have said but here's the excerpt anyway to add to what you've done here.

Nice job!

Question: Does Scripture support the interpretation of Romans 10:4 that maintains Christ represents the termination – the terminus of God’s Law?



The word translated “end” in Romans 10:4 is telos (tel’-os). It means termination, the last in any succession or series, that which finishes a thing, its close, the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose.



Now let’s look in James 5:8-11, “Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”



In the above text it is clear that James was not suggesting that they had seen the termination of the Christ but the aim and purpose of Christ. Note that the word translated “end” in James 5:11 is telos.



Look at 1 Peter 1:6-9, “Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.”



Is our salvation the terminus of our faith? Of course not, the aim and purpose of our faith the salvation of our souls. The word translated “end” in 1 Peter 1:9 is telos.



Look at 1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned…”



The termination of the commandment is charity or the aim and purpose of the commandment is charity? Obviously it is the latter. Again, the word here is telos.



Well, we’ve learned a little about the word end in Romans 10:4 but what about the idea itself – that Christ is the terminus of the Law of God, is that supported by scripture?



Look in Galatians 3:24, “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”



This text tells us that the purpose of the Law is to bring us to Christ. Thus Christ is the aim and purpose of the Law.

 

[Windmill]

I'd just like to say thanks guys for teaching me something new, that michael is the archangel, aka Jesus didn't know that before.

 

[2tim]

I'd just like to say thanks guys for teaching me something new, that michael is the archangel, aka Jesus didn't know that before.

Wow. Very cool! I'm really ggrateful for that. That is the whole point of course. Not to boast about what we know or worry about what we don't but to learn from each other. I think so anyway.

Really glad you got a blessing out of the study!

2Tim

 

[Windmill]

thanks And yes, I did. I'm young, so I'm still learning, and posts like these help

 

[maria767]

What is the name of the cult that teaches St Michael is The Lord Jesus CHrist.

I am just curious of the name of this cult.

Thank You