Jesus is coming back to......?

[Nilloc]

This cannot be at death because Jesus does not come to everyone individually when he dies.

I don't believe that it happens at death, but that John 14 was fulfilled in the first century and was just for the martyrs of the beast and the harlot.

This first resurrection occurs before the 1000 years. This is a continuation from Revelation 19 when the Lord appears and slays those with the beast and outs the beast and false prophet in the lake of fire. So when the Lord appears in Rev 19, it is speaking about his second coming but specifically how he deals with the wicked. God clearly recreates the Earth and Heaven after the 1000 years are finished. But there was the first resurrection before the 1000 years.

The thing is, I don't believe that Revelation 19 is speaking of the Second Coming.

After the 1000 years the New Heaven and Earth are created. So the first resurrection which occurs at his second coming is for who?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, (The Church)I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (Second Death has no power)

Why don't you quote from Rev. 20 itself, because it revels that the first resurrection is not for the whole Church, but for the martyrs.

Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
​

The Text in Romans does not help your argument.

Why?

Another place that proves that the Resurrection and the New Creation happen at the same time is 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
​

In this huge fantastic chapter on the Resurrection, Paul speaks of the end coming, all worldly powers being destroyed, all enemies under Christ's feet, death being destroyed, and God being all in all happen at the same time as the Resurrection. Paul allows for no gap between the Resurrection and the New Creation; how can God be all in all, yet death and a corrupt world still exist?

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

I don't think you interpreted this text properly.

If you're making the argument that Paul is speaking of us (creatures) suffering decay, then I understand what you're saying. The King James incorrectly translates ktisis as 'creature.' The correct translation is 'creation.'

If he was coming to meet us then why do we have to meet him in the air.

The meeting in the air is likely symbolic of Jesus's royal presence. But I think that we may literally rise to meet Him.

You have to read 1 Thess. 4 the way one would have in the first century, and they would have understood that Paul was indirectly critizing Caesar and saying that Christ is the real King. You have to understand that the meeting in the air is a way of saying that Jesus is the True King by applying something that was normally only done for Caesar. Just like Jesus being called 'Lord' which was a title for the emperor, 'Son of God' which was another title for Caesar, and 'meeting Christ in the air' was all a way of basically saying: "Jesus is Lord & King and the earthly powers are not."

God Bless.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I don't believe that it happens at death, but that John 14 was fulfilled in the first century and was just for the martyrs of the beast and the harlot.

Ok. WHAT? So then what was the mansion that Jesus went to prepare? The New World as you said before?

The thing is, I don't believe that Revelation 19 is speaking of the Second Coming.

So what is it speaking of then?

Why don't you quote from Rev. 20 itself, because it revels that the first resurrection is not for the whole Church, but for the martyrs.

Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
​

Why?

Scripture helps to interpret scripture. Revelation 20 does speak of martyrs. John says he sees martyrs but it does not mean that only martyrs are in this group. When you look at all of the passages that talk about the resurrection of the saints you realize that they fit only with the first resurrection because for those people in the first resurrection death is swallowed up in victory, the second death has no power.

Another place that proves that the Resurrection and the New Creation happen at the same time is 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
​

In this huge fantastic chapter on the Resurrection, Paul speaks of the end coming, all worldly powers being destroyed, all enemies under Christ's feet, death being destroyed, and God being all in all happen at the same time as the Resurrection. Paul allows for no gap between the Resurrection and the New Creation; how can God be all in all, yet death and a corrupt world still exist?

God is all in all all the time. Look at it this way. Who comes at the end of the 1000 years? God the father
So when does Jesus come? Not at the same time you know. Jesus comes to redeem his saints and God come as a judge. Death is destroyed at the end of the 1000 years. So Christ reigns for 1000 years.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After that 1000 years death is destroyed and God the father takes over the scene.

The meeting in the air is likely symbolic of Jesus's royal presence. But I think that we may literally rise to meet Him.

It cannot be both. It is literal.

 

[jeffweeder]

All one has to do is look at these scriptures. Abandon any preconceived notion you may have, and let the Bible itself do the talking.

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Psalm 6:3-5 "My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"

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Psalm 115:17 "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

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Psalm 146:4 "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

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Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

-----

Psalm 13:3
"Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;"

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John 11:11-14
"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."

This verse is special because Jesus explicitly said that Lazarus was sleeping. When the disciples didn't understand He said Lazarus was dead. What about the others?

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Job 14:12
"12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."

-----

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."


When Jesus died, how did He raise back up? He came out of the tomb. Since Jesus is the first fruits, that means He is an example of HOW we will be resurrected. Also notice at the end of the scripture it says AT HIS COMING. Wait, theres one more...

First, a question. Do you believe King David is in Heaven right now?



Acts 2:29-34
"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"


This scripture is on the day of pentacost, which means Jesus has already risen. According to most Christians, David should be in Heaven. However, Peter clearly says that King David HAS NOT ascended to the Heavens.

There is all the proof you need.

Yes indeed...great post
God has fixed a day when Jesus will come again and judge the living and the dead to their final abode.

No wonder God has to wipe all the tears away, its a great day for those in the book of life, but an unbelievably treachorous day for those who do not recieve our Lord Jesus Christ.
Reach out to those who dont believe, we are all they have got.

And here is a thought. The place that Jesus is going to prepare for us must have been in existence when he said that. The New World is not in existence and will not be until the millennium is over. So the place that he is preparing for is must be heaven where his father dwells and not the New World yet to be created

There is nothing beyond the fathers house...thats the ultimate.
Jesus went to the fathers house, and there he prepared a place for us.
Its better than eden, or anything God would create.
Its is house.............WOW.

 

[Nilloc]

Ok. WHAT? So then what was the mansion that Jesus went to prepare? The New World as you said before?

No its not the New World. I see the mansion (and the 1000 years) as a way to describe the martyrs rest in Heaven from their persecution by the beast and the harlot that lasted "ten days" (Rev. 2:9-10).

So what is it speaking of then?

I have a few ideas.

Scripture helps to interpret scripture. Revelation 20 does speak of martyrs. John says he sees martyrs but it does not mean that only martyrs are in this group. When you look at all of the passages that talk about the resurrection of the saints you realize that they fit only with the first resurrection because for those people in the first resurrection death is swallowed up in victory, the second death has no power.

The martyrs can only be the ones who take part in the first resurrection. John says that the ones who had been beheaded for their testomoniy for Christ and for the word of God came to life and reigned for 1000 years and that the rest of the dead (those who are not martyrs) come to life after the 1000 years. He doesn't say anything about other believers in the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Yes and Christ is already reigning, we don't have to wait for Him to.

After that 1000 years death is destroyed and God the father takes over the scene.

Exactly and this proves that the Second Coming and Resurrection take place after the 1000 years, because death is destroyed at the Second Coming (1 Cor. 15:26, Rev. 20:14).

It cannot be both. It is literal.

It's more of wishful thinking on my part wanting it to be literal. The more and more I learn the context of 1 Thess. 4, the more and more I see the catching up not being literal. You're right that it can't be both, and if that's the case, then it's symbolic; the social context proves it.

God is all in all all the time.

Not according to Paul, who says that He's not all in all yet (1 Cor. 15:28).

God Bless.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

No its not the New World. I see the mansion (and the 1000 years) as a way to describe the martyrs rest in Heaven from their persecution by the beast and the harlot that lasted "ten days" (Rev. 2:9-10).

Those verses say nothing about the beast and the harlot. That was a message to one of the early churches of the 7 churches. The beast and the harlot is later and you should know that.

I have a few ideas.

I am afraid of ideas. I prefer biblical doctrine. But please share.

The martyrs can only be the ones who take part in the first resurrection. John says that the ones who had been beheaded for their testomoniy for Christ and for the word of God came to life and reigned for 1000 years and that the rest of the dead (those who are not martyrs) come to life after the 1000 years. He doesn't say anything about other believers in the first resurrection.

It is true that he does not mention other believers in that passage. But if you only pay attention to my earlier posts you would find the answer to this. Look at it this way. Who comes at the end of the 1000 years? God the father
So when does Jesus come? Not at the same time you know. The events of Rev 19 and Rev 20: 7 when the ancient of days comes to judge have a 1000 year gap. We know that after the 100 years is finished Jesus is not the one making his appearance.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

This is not the second coming. This is not Jesus who comes to judge as the ancient of days. So when does Jesus come? It must be before the 1000 years begin. The resurrections of 1 thess 4 and I Cor 15 must either happen before the 1000 years are after the 1000 years when the ancient of days sits to judge. Is anyone judged who takes part in the resurrection in 1 thess 4: 16 and I Cor 15. No is the answer. Its instant. So the second coming must take place before the 1000 years and thus these people mentioned in those parallel resurrection passages must be apart of the first resurrection. Revelation 19 says nothing about saints on earth are any resurrection. Does that mean there will be no resurrection at that time.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Hello all
Is Jesus coming back to....

1) gather the righteous into an earthly millenial kingdom?

2) gather the wicked and Render to everyman according to his deeds and take us straight to the fathers house?

I say #1 and # 2, but # 1 first because of this verse...John 5:28-29 ~ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I don't believe that we will witness the damnation of the evil folks so we will be in the heavenly kingdom while He takes care of this.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I say #1 and # 2, but # 1 first because of this verse...[/color]John 5:28-29 ~ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I don't believe that we will witness the damnation of the evil folks so we will be in the heavenly kingdom while He takes care of this.

You are very correct. But no where in the bible shows of anyone coming back down to earth during the millennium. After the millennium however, the new Jerusalem descends from heaven to earth. And remember that the damnation of the beast and false prophet begins at his coming according to revelation 19. That lake of fire is suggested to be burning throughout. Maybe or maybe not. But we wont be here however. We will be in heaven.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

 

[jeffweeder]

Hi Nana

I say #1 and # 2, but # 1 first because of this verse...John 5:28-29 ~ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I don't believe that we will witness the damnation of the evil folks so we will be in the heavenly kingdom while He takes care of this.

I see the Lord uttering his voice...at a particular hour, and all those in the grave hear it---some upon hearing it come alive to either eternal life or eternal death.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

He only utters his voice once and we all come forth.

Going back to post 1, we can see those other scriptures about a day when Jesus will appear, and judge the living and the dead by his "appearing" ............and how at the last day we are raised, or we are judged by what he has already spoken.

Blessed is he who overcomes, for the second deadth cant hurt him.
We overcome by the blood of the lamb and our new birth (1st ress ) into the kingdom.

He who overcomes, i will not erase his name out of the book of life.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, ( 1st ress) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth;
those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. ( second death)(GWT)

I forgot to add that Matt 13 deals with the fact that the wicked are gathered first and thrown into fire (GWT), which suggests that the ressurection of the body happens to all when he comes to utter his voice.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Those verses say nothing about the beast and the harlot. That was a message to one of the early churches of the 7 churches. The beast and the harlot is later and you should know that.

I am afraid of ideas. I prefer biblical doctrine. But please share.

It is true that he does not mention other believers in that passage. But if you only pay attention to my earlier posts you would find the answer to this. Look at it this way. Who comes at the end of the 1000 years? God the father..........

If YWHW doesn't come back until after the 1000yrs, what is this event in Reve 16 "Day of the God" as prophecied in 2 Peter 3? Does God come twice? Not sure I understand.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

2 Peter 3:12 Expecting and hastening the parousia <3952> of the Day of the God, by reason of which, heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and elements burning are to be melted;

Reve 16:14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs which is going-out on the kings of the land, and the being-homed, whole, to-be-together-assembling them into the battle of the Day, that the Great, of the God the Almighty.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47538654#post47538654
Greek word help on Reve 16 and 20

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Hi Nana
I forgot to add that Matt 13 deals with the fact that the wicked are gathered first and thrown into fire (GWT), which suggests that the ressurection of the body happens to all when he comes to utter his voice.

Hi Jeff. Well duh me!!!!!! It does say that in Matt 13:30. Thank you for that.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't believe that it happens at death, but that John 14 was fulfilled in the first century and was just for the martyrs of the beast and the harlot.
The thing is, I don't believe that Revelation 19 is speaking of the Second Coming.

quote PK: So what is it speaking of then?

I have a few ideas.

quote PK: I am afraid of ideas. I prefer biblical doctrine. But please share.

I am also of the view Reve 19 is the Parousia of the Lord. In fact I started a thread on that awhile back and will see if I can dig it up.

Edit to add: found them

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6823406&page=12
Question on Reve 19:11

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6813701&page=37
Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

 

[zeke37]

You are very correct. But no where in the bible shows of anyone coming back down to earth during the millennium.

the dead believers come back here with Christ....

1Thes4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

and then we are told when that is...and it is at the beginning of the Lord's Day....

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

so this happens at the beginning of the Millennium....

caught up=seized...
clouds=mass multitudes as in Heb12:1
air=new body that all flesh is changed to at His coming.

After the millennium however, the new Jerusalem descends from heaven to earth. And remember that the damnation of the beast and false prophet begins at his coming according to revelation 19. That lake of fire is suggested to be burning throughout. Maybe or maybe not. But we wont be here however. We will be in heaven.

na!, if we be elect, we'll be working for God, in the temple...or even leaving the temple to help others....Ez44. ruling and reigning over those that have not yet overcome/elect...

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

yep...reserved in heaven, until that heaven is done away with and a new one is made...guess where it is made? right here on earth....call it a new earth and heaven.....but it is right here....

and we are to remember that not all of us will die...but those of us alive at His coming will instead be changed....why? because Christ is coming here, and flesh cannot inherrit the kingdom of God...that kingdom and it's King are coming here....and refining the others during the Millennium, hopefully enough that they likewise overcome and are worthy to join the Bride...by overcoming Satan when he goes to deceive the nations again at the Lord's Day conclusion...

in His service
c

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

All one has to do is look at these scriptures. Abandon any preconceived notion you may have, and let the Bible itself do the talking.

Actually, I think that some need to wipe their brains clean and start all over with Genesis . I have never seen so many conflicting views on the Word . This board is only a sample. Just think of what it is like in the the churches in the world. No wonder Jesus asked, will I find faith on the earth when I come..Lk 18:8.? Probably not much, as a lot will be to stuck in their personal little doctrine, or preconceived notions. It really reminds me of the Tower of Babel story in the bible where God confused the languages. I think that a type of that spirit is alive and well, and in this case it has distorted the truth of Gods Word in peoples HEADS, not Spirits....The bible says this, NO, it says that, you are wrong, you don't understand....a real spirit of confusion going on...but it was foretold to happen in the bible. Said my peace. Carry on..off to participate. Well, ya never know, it's been 5 years on this site and I might convince someone sometime, but I'm not betting the farm on it. I look at it anymore as working on my typing speed lol.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus is coming back to......?

That depends on what that "yoke" symbolizes in reve 6:5. Studying on that now since I have that chapter translated thru the Greek.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245861&page=2
Revelation Chapt 6 verse by verse

Deuteronomy 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which YHWH shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee. [Acts 15:10/Reve 6:5]

Reve 6:5 And when it open-up the third seal , I hear of the third living one saying: "Be coming"! And I saw and Behold! A horse, black and the one-sitting-down upon it/him having a Yoke/zugon <2218> in the hand of him. [Deut 28:18/Acts 15:10]