Jesus Held to Sola Scriptura

[AarontheStudent]

It however, poses no problems given Jesus spoke the words and is The Logos. The OP made that point pages ago.

Sure, but what's that have to do with Jesus teaching sola scriptura?

 

[Targaryen]

That was not an answer.

Actually it was, see the how the thread has continued to spiral away from the actual topic as proof.

 

[rjs330]

But you said we must obey Jesus commands. Yet according to sola scripture you don't.

This has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura, it has to do with obedience. Sola Scriptura has to do with the authority of scripture and nothing to do with a persons walk in obedience to what is taught in scripture. What is taught in scripture comes from Christ and the Father through the Holy Spirit. The scripture carries the authority of God himself. So if Christ commands something (we know what he commanded through the scriptures) then it is up to us to obey. We know what he commanded not through someone one today telling us what Christ said 2000 years ago, but because we have the inspired scriptures telling us what Christ said 2000 years ago.

Our obedience is separate from Sola Scriptura.

 

[rjs330]

Could we not say the Pharisees followed a form of sola scripture?

What the pharisees did was add to the scriptures. Jesus went after them for doing that which supports the idea of his belief in scriptures as the ultimate authority. He also went after them for not living up to the scriptures, which also fortifies his belief in scripture as the authority and not themselves. The Pharisees were the authority and placed themselves there and were wrong. Jesus recognized scripture as authority not the Pharisees.

 

[The Times]

Without an authentic control document, there can never be a transparent test bench, by which to test any unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines with.

Scripture is the authority of the Law and the Prophets, by which to test and to expose any contradictory teachings. The trouble becomes apparent, when rabbinical authority started to stamp their own authority through their interpretive instruction. Jesus exposed their failings for doing so.

Did you know many religious Jews rely on the writings of Talmud to interpret the Torah. In fact the result of which are contradictions and multiple answers for the same questions, which Jesus called hypocrisy.

Since God doesn't change, there must be a control document that provides a test bench by which to test all other man made teachings. The Orthodox Church always reports that what it teaches has to be in line with scripture and so do many other denominations. Hence you have a statement of belief that is universally extrapolated from scripture, like the trinity doctrine. Something that complex could not be made up extrabiblically.

Scripture remains an unchangable constitutional document of Christ's Monarchy. I teach all that we need to keep it and use it as the testing benchmark for morality and life.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Define Sola Scriptura.

That ultimately and before any man or woman's opinion, it is scripture that our minds are held captive to. Scripture before every other voice. Scripture is the final authority for the believer.

 

[stuart lawrence]

What the pharisees did was add to the scriptures. Jesus went after them for doing that which supports the idea of his belief in scriptures as the ultimate authority. He also went after them for not living up to the scriptures, which also fortifies his belief in scripture as the authority and not themselves. The Pharisees were the authority and placed themselves there and were wrong. Jesus recognized scripture as authority not the Pharisees.

The teachers of the law and Pharisees sit in Moses seat, so you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and place them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them
Matt23:2-4
The above does NOT refer to their man made rules, for the Pharisees faultlessly practices them. The above refers to what they preached but did NOT practice.
The Pharisees reeled off the letter of the law, insisting people must obey that letter.
Paul states:
The letter kills. 2cor3:6
When people just reel off the letter pat and insist you obey it, they will crush you. For neither you, me or anyone else can obey the letter that kills. And though the Pharisees were careful to clean the outside of the cup, the inside was a very different matter.
The ordinary folk, looking at the Pharisees would have imagined the inside of the cup was the same as the outside. And they would have been crushed, for they could not live up to the letter of the law while others gave the impression they did. Jesus obviously knew the truth.
People today also just make pat statements about obeying the law.
How many on this website quote:
If you love me obey my comnandments.
And people insist if you don't obey Jesus commands it proves you don't love him.
How many people have you met who have tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ? Personally I haven't met any. And I first started attending church over fifty years ago.
The Spirit of the law can be followed. The letter of the law you will fail to live up to every day of your life.
The Pharisees preached the letter and crushed the people by doing so.
And because they preached the letter they neglected the love of God in the process( luke11:42)
For the emphasis/ bottom line to attain heaven was obedience to the law, everything hinged on that.
King Davids bottom line to attain heaven lay elsewhere:
I trust in Gods unfailing love forever and ever

 

[Strong in Him]

This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:

It's true that the Hebrews in the wilderness were God's people, and that they had a form of governance and structure - i.e 12 tribes and only men from a certain tribe were priests. Not quite the same as a Christian church, but I take the point.

In answer to the OP though, Moses appointed 70 elders to make decisions and settle minor matters. Hopefully they asked for the Lord'd wisdom when they did this, but there was no written Scripture for them to refer to.

 

[redleghunter]

That ultimately and before any man or woman's opinion, it is scripture that our minds are held captive to. Scripture before every other voice. Scripture is the final authority for the believer.

Wise Ignatius the Kiwi, this is close. Being the good sport I am I think some definitions should be given.

From the Westminster Confession of Faith:

I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;[1] yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.[2]Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church;[3] and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing;[4] which makes the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;[5] those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]
[...]

IV. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.[9]

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture.[10] And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.[11]

VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.[14]

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all:[15] yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.[16]

VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical;[17] so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them.[18] But, because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them,[19] therefore they are to be translated in to the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come,[20] that, the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner;[21] and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.[22]

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.[23]

X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.[24]
Westminster Confession of Faith

 

[redleghunter]

Sure, but what's that have to do with Jesus teaching sola scriptura?

The OP is actually Jesus holding to it and not teaching it.

Now in Luke 24 we do see Jesus reinforce sola scriptura.

 

[AarontheStudent]

That's a long chapter. Can you be any more specific?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Wise Ignatius the Kiwi, this is close. Being the good sport I am I think some definitions should be given.

From the Westminster Confession of Faith:

I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;[1] yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.[2]Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church;[3] and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing;[4] which makes the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;[5] those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]
[...]

IV. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.[9]

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture.[10] And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.[11]

VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.[14]

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all:[15] yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.[16]

VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical;[17] so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them.[18] But, because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them,[19] therefore they are to be translated in to the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come,[20] that, the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner;[21] and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.[22]

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.[23]

X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.[24]
Westminster Confession of Faith

Mind if I ask how this relates to the topic of the thread?

 

[redleghunter]

Could we not say the Pharisees followed a form of sola scripture?

Not really. Jesus challenged their "traditions of man" which in some cases ignored the letter and spirit of the Law:

Mark 7: King James Version (KJV)
7 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[redleghunter]

Mind if I ask how this relates to the topic of the thread?

Sure. There have been posts where some have used the term sola scriptura who have little knowledge what it means.

When Socrates began discussions he tended to define the particulars with his discussion mates before diving into the discussion.

If we discuss and operate from error from the beginning, we then compound error as the discussion ensues.

Thought I would be helpful.

God Bless.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not really. Jesus challenged their "traditions of man" which in some cases ignored the letter and spirit of the Law:

Mark 7: King James Version (KJV)
7 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I think post 227 covers the more important hypocrisy of the Pharisees. Certainly the more damaging.

 

[The Times]

Did Jesus teach the law and the prophets of scripture?

Yes, throughout scripture Jesus refers to the law and the prophets without fail.

Did Jesus endorse people live by the law and the prophets?

Well, if he taught it, he expected obedience to it, otherwise he would be no different to the Pharisees who taught it, yet didn't follow through themselves, with what they taught.

Jesus gives us the story of the rich man and Lazarus and we see the emphasises at the end, for the knowledge of the truth and salvation for the rich man's brothers placed solely on Moses and the prophets. Since Moses and the Prophets were not present in the flesh, their written and oral dictation of their writings were.

So it is clear as day that Jesus expected the living to abide and live by them.

 

[Anguspure]

Jesus held to the idea that scripture, not church office-holder, is the ultimate authority for the believer, so why don't you?

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. (John 5, 12, 14)

So we read in the scripture that Jesus is not an advocate of Sola Scriptura, rather He advocates Sola Espirito Sancto. The scripture plays a role in teaching, admonishment and guidance, and can be trusted to be inspired from the Spirit, but it is the Father through His Spirit who is the final authority on matters of faith.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

As for scholars and theologians, Paul warned us about them
1cor ch1:20

Paul was a scholar and theologian.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. (John 5, 12, 14)

So we read in the scripture that Jesus is not an advocate of Sola Scriptura, rather He advocates Sola Espirito Sancto. The scripture plays a role in teaching, admonishment and guidance, and can be trusted to be inspired from the Spirit, but it is the Father through His Spirit who is the final authority on matters of faith.

Do the Father or Spirit teach things contrary to scripture?

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus held to the idea that scripture, not church office-holder, is the ultimate authority for the believer, so why don't you?

I do...

God Bless!