Jesus Held to Sola Scriptura

[jimmyjimmy]

And in the role of ultimate authority, he told is followers to obey the Scribes and Pharisees.

You're reaching, there.

A mistaken ruling is not a command to break the Sabbath. . .

 

[Steve Petersen]

You're reaching, there.

A mistaken ruling is not a command to break the Sabbath. . .

Who commanded anyone to break the Sabbath?

 

[Noxot]

Who commanded anyone to break the Sabbath?

Jesus did

 

[WonderingStranger]

Silly evangelicals always learning but never perceiving. When was the last time the bible talked to me, or heard my prayers...um never.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 ¶ Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

That was easy

Question for you where do you see final authority written on this verse?

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Steve Petersen]

Jesus did

What specifically did he do to violate the Sabbath?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Who commanded anyone to break the Sabbath?

They (priests) couldn't. That's my point.

Scripture trumped the priest's authority.

 

[disciple1]

Jesus held to the idea that scripture, not church office-holder, is the ultimate authority for the believer, so why don't you?

Here.

Matthew chapter 4 verse 4
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Romans chapter 1 verse 28
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

John chapter 8 verse 31,32
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, " If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
2 John
9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
Job chapter 23 verse 12
I have not departed from the commands of his lips; I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread.

Matthew 11
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Luke chapter 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Romans chapter 10
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Mark chapter 13
31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
James chapter 1
25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
James chapter 4
8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Isaiah chapter 45 verse 19
I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in vain.' I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right.
Jeremiah chapter 9
24 but let the one who boasts boast about this:
that they have the understanding to know me,
that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,”
declares the Lord.
Jeremiah chapter 5 verse 1
5 “Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem,
look around and consider,
search through her squares.
If you can find but one person
who deals honestly and seeks the truth,
I will forgive this city.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Here is another definitive text on the matter:

"But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’"

Abraham did NOT appeal to the authority of priests or angels, but the texts, as obviously Moses and the prophets were long dead.

 

[Steve Petersen]

.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Here is another definitive text on the matter:

"But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’"

Abraham did NOT appeal to the authority of priests or angels, but the texts, as obviously Moses and the prophets were long dead.

Deuteronomy 17 is part of the Law:

8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which Jehovah thy God shall choose; 9 and thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days: and thou shalt inquire; and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment.

10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence which they shall show thee from that place which Jehovah shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee: 11 according to the tenor of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Deuteronomy 17 is part of the Law:

8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which Jehovah thy God shall choose; 9 and thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days: and thou shalt inquire; and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment.

10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence which they shall show thee from that place which Jehovah shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee: 11 according to the tenor of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.

How is that a rebuttal to the Rich Man & Lazarus text?

 

[Noxot]

What specifically did he do to violate the Sabbath?

that is the kind of question to ask because obviously Jesus has good reasons for what he does. a few verses that come to mind are:

Matthew 12:1-14 (YLT)
At that time did Jesus go on the sabbaths through the corn, and his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck ears, and to eat, and the Pharisees having seen, said to him, `Lo, thy disciples do that which it is not lawful to do on a sabbath.' And he said to them, `Did ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, himself and those with him-- how he went into the house of God, and the loaves of the presentation did eat, which it is not lawful to him to eat, nor to those with him, except to the priests alone? `Or did ye not read in the Law, that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple do profane the sabbath, and are blameless? and I say to you, that a greater than the temple is here; and if ye had known what is: Kindness I will, and not sacrifice--ye had not condemned the blameless, for the son of man is lord even of the sabbath.' And having departed thence, he went to their synagogue, and lo, there was a man having the hand withered, and they questioned him, saying, `Is it lawful to heal on the sabbaths?' that they might accuse him. And he said to them, `What man shall be of you, who shall have one sheep, and if this may fall on the sabbaths into a ditch, will not lay hold on it and raise it ? How much better, therefore, is a man than a sheep? --so that it is lawful on the sabbaths to do good.' Then saith he to the man, `Stretch forth thy hand,' and he stretched it forth, and it was restored whole as the other. And the Pharisees having gone forth, held a consultation against him, how they might destroy him,

John 5:5-11 (YLT)
and there was a certain man there being in ailment thirty and eight years, him Jesus having seen lying, and having known that he is already a long time, he saith to him, `Dost thou wish to become whole?' The ailing man answered him, `Sir, I have no man, that, when the water may be troubled, he may put me into the pool, and while I am coming, another doth go down before me.' Jesus saith to him, `Rise, take up thy couch, and be walking;' and immediately the man became whole, and he took up his couch, and was walking, and it was a sabbath on that day, the Jews then said to him that hath been healed, `It is a sabbath; it is not lawful to thee to take up the couch.' He answered them, `He who made me whole--that one said to me, Take up thy couch, and be walking;'

 

[Steve Petersen]

How is that a rebuttal to the Rich Man & Lazarus text?

Because Moses gave authority to the Priests and Elders to rule on the Law and that they were to be obeyed. So Abraham's appeal to Moses includes this passage in Deuteronomy. Scripture alone was not adequate or there would have been no need for priests and elder to interpret it for the people.

 

[Steve Petersen]

that is the kind of question to ask because obviously Jesus has good reasons for what he does. a few verses that come to mind are:

Matthew 12:1-14 (YLT)
At that time did Jesus go on the sabbaths through the corn, and his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck ears, and to eat, and the Pharisees having seen, said to him, `Lo, thy disciples do that which it is not lawful to do on a sabbath.' And he said to them, `Did ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, himself and those with him-- how he went into the house of God, and the loaves of the presentation did eat, which it is not lawful to him to eat, nor to those with him, except to the priests alone? `Or did ye not read in the Law, that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple do profane the sabbath, and are blameless? and I say to you, that a greater than the temple is here; and if ye had known what is: Kindness I will, and not sacrifice--ye had not condemned the blameless, for the son of man is lord even of the sabbath.' And having departed thence, he went to their synagogue, and lo, there was a man having the hand withered, and they questioned him, saying, `Is it lawful to heal on the sabbaths?' that they might accuse him. And he said to them, `What man shall be of you, who shall have one sheep, and if this may fall on the sabbaths into a ditch, will not lay hold on it and raise it ? How much better, therefore, is a man than a sheep? --so that it is lawful on the sabbaths to do good.' Then saith he to the man, `Stretch forth thy hand,' and he stretched it forth, and it was restored whole as the other. And the Pharisees having gone forth, held a consultation against him, how they might destroy him,

John 5:5-11 (YLT)
and there was a certain man there being in ailment thirty and eight years, him Jesus having seen lying, and having known that he is already a long time, he saith to him, `Dost thou wish to become whole?' The ailing man answered him, `Sir, I have no man, that, when the water may be troubled, he may put me into the pool, and while I am coming, another doth go down before me.' Jesus saith to him, `Rise, take up thy couch, and be walking;' and immediately the man became whole, and he took up his couch, and was walking, and it was a sabbath on that day, the Jews then said to him that hath been healed, `It is a sabbath; it is not lawful to thee to take up the couch.' He answered them, `He who made me whole--that one said to me, Take up thy couch, and be walking;'

Can you find specific Torah law that prohibits these things?

 

[Noxot]

Can you find specific Torah law that prohibits these things?

I was wondering if they were written down word for word but then I figured that Jesus told them to listen to the scribes and pharisees because they sit on the seat of moses. and people here are saying that the priest and elders can make decisions about the law and so in some way it is thus written.

but if you want an example then this is the best one I can find and it surly reveals how evil it is to obey the letter of the law instead of the indwelling spirit.

Num 15:32-36 (YLT)
And the sons of Israel are in the wilderness, and they find a man gathering wood on the sabbath-day, and those finding him gathering wood bring him near unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto all the company, and they place him in ward, for it is not explained what is to be done to him. And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `The man is certainly put to death, all the company stoning him with stones, at the outside of the camp.' And all the company bring him out unto the outside of the camp, and stone him with stones, and he dieth, as Jehovah hath commanded Moses.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I was wondering if they were written down word for word but then I figured that Jesus told them to listen to the scribes and pharisees because they sit on the seat of moses. and people here are saying that the priest and elders can make decisions about the law and so in some way it is thus written.

but if you want an example then this is the best one I can find and it surly reveals how evil it is to obey the letter of the law instead of the indwelling spirit.

Num 15:32-36 (YLT)
And the sons of Israel are in the wilderness, and they find a man gathering wood on the sabbath-day, and those finding him gathering wood bring him near unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto all the company, and they place him in ward, for it is not explained what is to be done to him. And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `The man is certainly put to death, all the company stoning him with stones, at the outside of the camp.' And all the company bring him out unto the outside of the camp, and stone him with stones, and he dieth, as Jehovah hath commanded Moses.

What does this have to do with healing on the Sabbath as a violation?
I think you understand my point: the Torah is not specific about what constitutes a Sabbath violation. It prohibits work but never defines it.
Christian interpretation of Sabbath violation is usually based on how they read the polemic between Jesus and his opponents. This approach does not take developments between Moses and Jesus in scriptural interpretation and legal rulings by the priests and elders in this regard.

 

[Noxot]

What does this have to do with healing on the Sabbath as a violation?
I think you understand my point: the Torah is not specific about what constitutes a Sabbath violation. It prohibits work but never defines it.
Christian interpretation of Sabbath violation is usually based on how they read the polemic between Jesus and his opponents. This approach does not take developments between Moses and Jesus in scriptural interpretation and legal rulings by the priests and elders in this regard.

I gave that example because Jesus told the man who he healed to pick up his mat which seems pretty similar to picking up some wood. Jesus does not do wrong regardless of those who accuse him.

the perception of what constitutes work forces us to make some decisions for ourselves and attempts to move us beyond the mere letter of the law.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I gave that example because Jesus told the man who he healed to pick up his mat which seems pretty similar to picking up some wood. Jesus does not do wrong regardless of those who accuse him.

So, had the matter of carrying on the Sabbath been decided in Jesus' day?

 

[Noxot]

So, had the matter of carrying on the Sabbath been decided in Jesus' day?

I think that many people decide for themselves. some appear to have more authority than others and some listen to those while others listen to this or that. Jesus seems to have figured it out way better than some.


they had a long time to figure it out but knowing how people will do anything that they think God tells them probably means that they should probably kill people for picking sticks up. if God had a man put to death for picking up sticks then I could see why the scribes would have zeal and paranoia for people doing things such as when the disciples plucked some food for themselves.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I think that many people decide for themselves. some appear to have more authority than others and some listen to those while others listen to this or that. Jesus seems to have figured it out way better than some.


they had a long time to figure it out but knowing how people will do anything that they think God tells them probably means that they should probably kill people for picking sticks up. if God had a man put to death for picking up sticks then I could see why the scribes would have zeal and paranoia for people doing things such as when the disciples plucked some food for themselves.

So, did Jesus violate the Sabbath by telling the man to pick up is mat?