Jesus has broken the Sabbath

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2023

mikeforjesus said:
Sabbath may still be a Special day Paul not saying it isn’t but not to argue but not to justify that when many of Israel converts at end of age and God does signs among them to prove they will keep sabbath as blessing as time to worship though not needed and all nations will come to Jerusalem to join them but could be in new earth that sabbaths will be kept

Just as Is 66:23 says -- so then the Sabbath commandment was not deleted at the cross.

And ever reference to a weekly day of worship and gospel preaching in the NT - is a reference to the Bible Sabbath.

So for example in Act 18:4 "Every Sabbath" was a day for worship and gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews
Acts 13 gentiles wait for the Jews to leave the Sabbath service - then they ask that Paul schedule MORE gospel preaching on the NEXT Sabbath. At which point they invite the whole town to attend.

Is 56:6-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping - Sabbath blessings.

mikeforjesus said:
as bible says in new covenant none shall teach neighbor

The New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 says God writes His Law on the heart under the NEW Covenant -- and this is repeated in Heb 8 - verbatim.

Gary K · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Do you keep all 613 commandments in the Law?

Why would you think all 613 laws were written on the two tables of stone? Seems to me Moses could never have carried them up and down the mounatin side twice. Not only would they have been far too bulky the weight of that much stone would make it next to impossible let alone to have fit them in the ark of the covenant.

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Exactly. Which is why an infinity God does not need to follow finite rules.

Matt 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law"

Jesus was "without sin"

Jesus never argues with his enemies saying "I break God's Law all the time -- that is because I get to ignore God's Law -- you don't get to do that"

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Gary K · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
By golly, I think he is getting the hang of it!

No, I think maybe you're beginning to get it as you're agreeing with me.

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

Gary K said:
Why would you think all 613 laws were written on the two tables of stone? Seems to me Moses could never have carried them up and down the mounatin side twice. Not only would they have been far too bulk the weight of that much stone would make it next to impossible let alone to have fit them in the ark of the covenant.

When did the rest of the Laws come to Moses?

BobRyan said:
Matt 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law"

Jesus was "without sin"

Have you ever transgressed the Law?

Gary K said:
No, I think maybe you're beginning to get it as you're agreeing with me.

Let's review.

The purpose of the Law is to show us we are sinful as no one can keep all the Laws. So unless you want to say you do not break the Law, then I would say the only one who can keep the Law is Christ. Are we agreed with that so far @Gary K, @BobRyan, @SabbathBlessings? We can move on to what follows logically from that if we are all on board with this.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Aug 19, 2023

Gary K said:
If God is moral He has to follow His own moral laws.

Everything God does is right because He is Supreme. Every law is there to prove you are a sinner. None exist to put limits on God's actions. If they were, we could argue that He broke His own command, "Thou shalt not kill", when He sacrificed His own Son for our sins.

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

B Griffin said:
Everything God does is right because He is Supreme. Every law is there to prove you are a sinner. None exist to put limits on God's actions. If they were, we could argue that He broke His own command, "Thou shalt not kill", when He sacrificed His own Son for our sins.

Would you mind reading my post just prior to this so I can know if we are all on the same page or not? It would be a lot more productive than quoting ourselves at this stage, I think.

eleos1954 · Aug 19, 2023

mikeforjesus said:
Out of concern I want to or must say to Seventh Day Adventists and those who count on keeping sabbath to save that that seems to risk salvation so should not do for we know Paul also says it is not true one day considers one day more important one and others everyday alike let each be convinced but Paul seems to mean that one day is just for benefit not to justify and since others can be justified if they do not it is safest not to teach or seek to keep to justify for as paul said if you are circumcised christ will profit you nothing that it also applies to any work that christ did not command such as sabbath and we know as paul says we dont have to worry about sabbaths.

Sabbath may still be a Special day Paul not saying it isn’t but not to argue but not to justify that when many of Israel converts at end of age and God does signs among them to prove they will keep sabbath as blessing as time to worship though not needed and all nations will come to Jerusalem to join them but could be in new earth that sabbaths will be kept there for how shall they look at those in hell except they not be on this earth and God said in Isaiah He will make either gentiles or Israelites priests then.

I believe meaning it will be like early church for people to have power of apostles that some will be as apostles to hear from God to give a word to others and as revelations says we are royal priesthood though there is different functions in church some will be chosen in position who are good to intercede for people though all can but they are good for it not needing old priesthood as bible says in new covenant none shall teach neighbor but this priesthood could be in new earth for it says they shall see my glory but they never heard of His fame so are those born who never hear about Christ that some are born then and need also to be schooled in the law before they can hear about Christ so temple sacrifices will be in new earth to understand blood then.

The 7th day sabbath is the day the Lord created .... before sin.

There were many "sabbaths" in the jewish culture .... but they distinguished the 7th from the others. Sometimes other sabbaths did fall on the 7th day ... that is .... it was included with the other sabbaths .... the other sabbaths were not a replacement of the 7th day.

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2023

Emun said:
John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

I am aware that most commentators are of the opinion that Jesus did not break the Sabbath and that the Jews had falsely accused him, but if you look at it more closely, the Jews were actually right in their accusation that Jesus broke the Sabbath.

Any time you get into a position where you are arguing along with the false accusers of Christ - with his enemies - it should raise a red flag in your mind that just maybe you are arguing on the wrong side of that fence.

Emun said:
Reason:
The law says you shall not bear any burden on the Sabbath (Jeremiah 17:21-22). That this commandment is to be understood in exactly this way can be seen from the fact that God had a man stoned to death for carrying only wood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36). Jesus broke this commandment by commanding the healed man to carry his bed (John 5:10-11).

Not true.

The OT condemned gathering wood and working to kindle a fire (a lot of work if you have ever tried to do that without a match and gasoline) -- by contrast picking up a simple mat and carrying it to one's house is not "an occupation" , is not "secular work". So Jesus can say about such senseless rules of the Pharisees "the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND, not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27

Pharisees made stuff up, adding their own onerous regulations as if God could be blamed for stuff they made up.

Emun said:
The Jews were right in their accusation in this regard.

Not true - they were falsely accusing others based on stuff they simply made up.

So then Mark 7:6-13 Jesus flat out condemns all their made up traditions because as He said - they were nullifying the Commandments of God by the stuff they were making up.

Emun said:
And the clear proof that Jesus broke the Sabbath lies in the fact that John the author of the Gospel agrees with this in verse 18. If Jesus had not broken the Sabbath, he would not have expressed himself in this way but would have made it clear that the Jews were lying.

Not true.
Just as in Acts 10 Peter says "you know that it is not lawful for one who is a Jew to eat with gentiles" - but in fact there is no such law in scripture - rather it was another made up rule of the Jews.

Emun said:
The reason why Jesus broke the ceremonial commandments like the Sabbath was not because he was a sinner for he is sinless but because he wanted to show that these commandments are to be understood spiritually.

nope.

Even in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
Jesus lists a number of God's commandments in Matt 5 and shows how HIS rule Magnifies and strengthens the commands of God instead of downsizing or deleting. Take adultery for example - how does Matt 5 magnify that commandment?

Emun said:
The Sabbath was never to be the seventh day of the week.

"The seventh day IS The Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10
In Ex 16 "tomorrow IS the Sabbath" and for 40 years -- no manna on the EXACT seventh day... each week.

Emun said:
The Sabbath was Jesus Christ,

Not one text says "Jesus is the Sabbath" ... no text says "Jesus is your Sabbath" . No text says "after the disciples joined Christ they stopped keeping the Sabbath"

NewLifeInChristJesus · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Would you mind reading my post just prior to this so I can know if we are all on the same page or not? It would be a lot more productive than quoting ourselves at this stage, I think.

Yes, I agree with what you wrote in the prior post. But you will not get much movement from the SDA folks because they are not able to see that function of the law. They think of it as cruelty (based on my previous experience with two of the members you mentioned).

Gary K · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
When did the rest of the Laws come to Moses?

Have you ever transgressed the Law?

Let's review.

The purpose of the Law is to show us we are sinful as no one can keep all the Laws. So unless you want to say you do not break the Law, then I would say the only one who can keep the Law is Christ. Are we agreed with that so far @Gary K, @BobRyan, @SabbathBlessings? We can move on to what follows logically from that if we are all on board with this.

Later. Moses wrote them down, not God with His finger on stone. There is no Biblical record of anything being written on stone by God other than the 10.

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

Gary K said:
Later.

Later, when? Do you have a passage you can point to?

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

B Griffin said:
Yes, I agree with what you wrote in the prior post. But you will not get much movement from the SDA folks because they are not able to see that function of the law. They think of it as cruelty (based on my previous experience with two of the members you mentioned).

That explains why they have dropped the discussion like a hot potato.

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Have you ever transgressed the Law?

Rom 3:23 "all have sinned".
Eph 6:2 "honor your father and mother - which is the first commandment with a promise". First commandent in the TEN with a promise not the first command in the book of Exodus with a promise.

The fact that all have sinned did not translate to "so don't worry about dishonoring parents"

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Let's review.

The purpose of the Law is to show us we are sinful as no one can keep all the Laws.

True -

But in Rom 8:4-11 only the lost "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"

Jesse Dornfeld said:
So unless you want to say you do not break the Law, then I would say the only one who can keep the Law is Christ.

All have sinned - so all need the Gospel
But once saved, once born again - the Rom 6 chapter tells us we are "no longer" slaves to sin
Rom 8 says only the lost "CAN NOT" submit to the Law of God
1 John 2:1 says to the saved, born-again saints "these things I write that you sin not"

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Are we agreed with that so far @Gary K, @BobRyan, @SabbathBlessings? We can move on to what follows logically from that if we are all on board with this.

We all agree that "all have sinned" Rom 3:23
Only Christ was sinless.

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2023

B Griffin said:
Yes, I agree with what you wrote in the prior post. But you will not get much movement from the SDA folks because they are not able to see that function of the law. They think of it as cruelty (based on my previous experience with two of the members you mentioned).

Are you familiar with the phrase "false accusation"??

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
That explains why they have dropped the discussion like a hot potato.

?? -- who "they"??

Gary K · Aug 19, 2023

B Griffin said:
Everything God does is right because He is Supreme. Every law is there to prove you are a sinner. None exist to put limits on God's actions. If they were, we could argue that He broke His own command, "Thou shalt not kill", when He sacrificed His own Son for our sins.

First Jesus gave Himself as a sacrifice willingly. Or do you think the Father somehow forced His own Son to subject Himself to becoming human and then dying on the cross? That in and of itself is a violation of His own law.

Mat_26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

You normally have things pretty well thought out even though we disagree on some things, but this time not so much.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Aug 19, 2023

BobRyan said:
Are you familiar with the phrase "false accusation"??

It's not a false accusation. Just ask Gary. He'll corroborate that he said that in a previous discussion (maybe earlier in this one).

NewLifeInChristJesus · Aug 19, 2023

Gary K said:
First Jesus gave Himself as a sacrifice willingly. Or do you think the Father somehow forced His own Son to subject Himself to becoming human and then dying on the cross? That in and of itself is a violation of His own law.

You normally have things pretty well thought out even though we disagree on some things, but this time not so much.

He asked to be released from the mission, but did not get permission. Besides, John 3:16 said God sacrificed His Son for us.

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

BobRyan said:
But once saved, once born again - the Rom 6 chapter tells us we are "no longer" slaves to sin
Rom 8 says only the lost "CAN NOT" submit to the Law of God

And what Law was given in its place in Romans 8? I will tell you: "The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus."

BobRyan said:
1 John 2:1 says to the saved, born-again saints "these things I write that you sin not"

Does that nullify what John said in 1 John 1:8? And technically, John is saying the APOSTLES cannot be without sin (1 John 1:1) and 1 John 2:1 John says, "I am writing these things to YOU." Two different groups of people there. And if the Apostles cannot be without sin, then neither can anyone else.

BobRyan said:
We all agree that "all have sinned" Rom 3:23
Only Christ was sinless.

Okay, allow me to make this clear. One of your own has said that the purpose of the Law is to show us we are sinful. Do you agree with that?

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