Jesus died for our sins - but how?

[~Anastasia~]

I understand the emphasis in the Orthodox church on seeing sin as a sickness that we need to be healed from.

And I understand and well accept the idea of Christ having died a man, and yet, being God, was victorious over death in this.

But I'm trying to see if there is a place for the understanding of Christ's death for the remission of sins. (I know it sounds like baptism, but I'm trying to frame the question without trying to prejudice it by mentioning payment for sins, or substitutionary atonement, or any particular theory.)

I'll just leave it at that and see if there are opinions? and I don't know if I'll have time to check and/or reply before Saturday at the soonest, but I wanted to ask before I forget.

Blessed Pascha!

 

[The Unorthodox Orthodox]

Hello! I believe your answer can be found here

Eastern Orthodox Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[truefiction1]

I understand the emphasis in the Orthodox church on seeing sin as a sickness that we need to be healed from.

And I understand and well accept the idea of Christ having died a man, and yet, being God, was victorious over death in this.

But I'm trying to see if there is a place for the understanding of Christ's death for the remission of sins. (I know it sounds like baptism, but I'm trying to frame the question without trying to prejudice it by mentioning payment for sins, or substitutionary atonement, or any particular theory.)

I'll just leave it at that and see if there are opinions? and I don't know if I'll have time to check and/or reply before Saturday at the soonest, but I wanted to ask before I forget.

Blessed Pascha!

There is certainly a place for understandings such as this, as long as they are tempered with the understanding that any "payment" needs are always on our own end of things, NOT ON GOD'S.

Guilt exists as a universal human feeling, and humans from time immemorial have striven to expiate that guilt in many ways, some very evil (such as the sacrifice of strangers to the gods or to some utopian dream that has driven genocide at various times and places). The guilt feeling is real. It is a sickness that drives all sorts of corruption and heartache. The cure is to acknowledge it, and to accept being forgiven for it by a God Who has never held anyone's guilt against them. The symbol of this forgiveness is Christ Crucified. The guilt, however, cannot ultimately be removed without the destruction of death (for our mortality is one great source of the guilt), which is accomplished by the death and resurrection of Christ, the death being a necessary prelude to rising from it. We need constant reminders of this forgiveness in order to successfully overcome the fracturing of our psyche by guilt, and knowing this, Christ gave us the Eucharistic ritual to frequently commemorate His at-one-ing sacrifice.

This understanding is summed up pretty well as follows: "Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death." (Heb 2:14-15)

The devil is sometimes called in scripture, the accuser, and this is a reference to our guilt. The devil overcome, is guilt overcome. In Orthodoxy, we would add also to the above quoted scripture that Christ broke the power of the devil not just by His death but by His resurrection. By those two things together. We see them as inseparable. Eucharistic commemoration takes into account all of those activities by which God has given us eternal Life.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hello! I believe your answer can be found here

Eastern Orthodox Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you.

I did read the section you sent and the next one carefully. (Thanks for the link overall, btw, when I have time I want to read the rest.)

But I don't see any answer there really beyond what I already have in mind as the Orthodox answer (though I know I didn't word it nearly so well).

There are several Scripture passages that don't seem fully explained by the idea (though I may not be looking at them rightly). Basically it does leave me with the question - if those are the only means accomplished by Christs's death, then why the Cross? Why not simply death by old age, for example, after an extended lifetime of teaching? The fact that Jesus suffered such a cruel and humiliating death must mean something?

Or am I missing something?

Thank you for any replies.

Blessed Pascha!

 

[truefiction1]

The beautiful thing is that we don't need to understand all of that which I rationally explained above. Our total psyche, including the unconscious part, is smarter than we are, and comprehends the symbols even without the interference of our conscious mind. The cross, the tomb, the resurrection, the glorious ascension. All these symbols shout FORGIVENESS into the depths of our souls, compelling us to shed tears of joy and thanksgiving.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There is certainly a place for understandings such as this, as long as they are tempered with the understanding that any "payment" needs are always on our own end of things, NOT ON GOD'S.

Guilt exists as a universal human feeling, and humans from time immemorial have striven to expiate that guilt in many ways, some very evil (such as the sacrifice of strangers to the gods or to some utopian dream that has driven genocide at various times and places). The guilt feeling is real. It is a sickness that drives all sorts of corruption and heartache. The cure is to acknowledge it, and to accept being forgiven for it by a God Who has never held anyone's guilt against them. The symbol of this forgiveness is Christ Crucified. The guilt, however, cannot ultimately be removed without the destruction of death (for our mortality is one great source of the guilt), which is accomplished by the death and resurrection of Christ, the death being a necessary prelude to rising from it. We need constant reminders of this forgiveness in order to successfully overcome the fracturing of our psyche by guilt, and knowing this, Christ gave us the Eucharistic ritual to frequently commemorate His at-one-ing sacrifice.

This understanding is summed up pretty well as follows: "Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death." (Heb 2:14-15)

The devil is sometimes called in scripture, the accuser, and this is a reference to our guilt. The devil overcome, is guilt overcome. In Orthodoxy, we would add also to the above quoted scripture that Christ broke the power of the devil not just by His death but by His resurrection. By those two things together. We see them as inseparable. Eucharistic commemoration takes into account all of those activities by which God has given us eternal Life.

Thank you. This sheds a little more light for me.

So you would say that the horrific way in which Christ died has more to do with the level of our feelings of guilt???

I'm not sure if that quite "clicks" for me, but I will think on it.

Thank you for the reply.

Blessed Pascha!

 

[~Anastasia~]

The beautiful thing is that we don't need to understand all of that which I rationally explained above. Our total psyche, including the unconscious part, is smarter than we are, and comprehends the symbols even without the interference of our conscious mind. The cross, the tomb, the resurrection, the glorious ascension. All these symbols shout FORGIVENESS into the depths of our souls, compelling us to shed tears of joy and thanksgiving.

Ah, thank you. Strangely enough - THAT actually makes much more sense of it to me. Especially this week. Thank you.

Blessed Pascha!

 

[Lukaris]

Our Lord's passion is prophesied in Isaiah 53. I do not believe God forced the passion of His Son but knew what humanity would do to His Son. I think this is summed up in John 3:16.

Sorry I overlooked your post in which you indicated your question was answered. Ignore my post if that is best.

 

[truefiction1]

So you would say that the horrific way in which Christ died has more to do with the level of our feelings of guilt???

Yes. Our souls can experience the greatness of God's Love for us through His sufferings, which He endured in our human form. We accept that Love and return it.

You have to experience this for yourself. It defies rational definition.

 

[inconsequential]

Is it widely accepted in Orthodoxy that Christ had to be killed because He could not die from natural causes? I believe I read that in On The Incarnation.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

So you would say that the horrific way in which Christ died has more to do with the level of our feelings of guilt???

It's also that He chose the most degrading way to die. He was humiliated and in pain. He suffered. Since He has experienced the most horrific, embarrasing, and painful death humanity has devised there is not a single person out there who can say that God can't understand their pain, or humiliation. He has matched the Divine with every level of human experience. He has come to us wherever we are.

This is a video I love that explains some of the difference. Christ is pursuing us, wherever we are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZrsbCK5Hrg

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's also that He chose the most degrading way to die. He was humiliated and in pain. He suffered. Since He has experienced the most horrific, embarrasing, and painful death humanity has devised there is not a single person out there who can say that God can't understand their pain, or humiliation. He has matched the Divine with every level of human experience. He has come to us wherever we are.

This is a video I love that explains some of the difference. Christ is pursuing us, wherever we are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZrsbCK5Hrg

yep, when you truly love someone, you identify with them at their lowest level. for a Jew, there is nothing lower than to be hung on a tree, betrayed into the hands of Gentiles, mocked, spat upon, tortured, and put to death with no children in the prime of one's life.

 

[buzuxi02]

Quick and to the point: He was made the scapegoat for us. Or as Christ put it in the gospel of John, 'There is no greater love than for a man to die for his friends.'

 

[xenia]

A monastic on a different board (I think it was Monachos) explained the Atonement is a way that made sense:

1. Death is a giant meat grinder and the Evil One is turning the crank.
2. All of humanity is inexorably drawn towards the grinder, that is, we all die.
3. Christ became man and threw Himself into the meat grinder voluntarily.
4. Christ was like a giant diamond. He was so strong He broke the grinder to bits.
5. The meat grinder is smashed. Christ trampled down death (the grinder) by His death.
6. Because of this, we can all have eternal life.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

It's also that He chose the most degrading way to die. He was humiliated and in pain. He suffered. Since He has experienced the most horrific, embarrasing, and painful death humanity has devised there is not a single person out there who can say that God can't understand their pain, or humiliation. He has matched the Divine with every level of human experience. He has come to us wherever we are.

This is a video I love that explains some of the difference. Christ is pursuing us, wherever we are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZrsbCK5Hrg

I was thinking about this at the end of tonight's service. Christ, our God, Who could have snapped His fingers and accomplished our salvation in some painless, non-humiliating way, *chose* to stand there and allow all of these horrible things to be done to Him for our sake. Just think about it.

Me, I can't even stand to be hungry, or go without sleep for a little while.

I think St John Chrysostom's says it all:


Enjoy ye all the feast of faith: Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness. let no one bewail his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.

Mary

 

[~Anastasia~]

So little time. I should be asleep. Church us nearly an hour away.

I was thinking of this today and I was reminded "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins" and indeed, of the animal sacrifices of the old covenant which prefigured Christ.

But then after thinking of it for a moment, it's not that the animal sacrifices set any kind of "rule" regarding the remission of sins necessarily; rather I think it so much more likely that they were instituted as a prefiguring of Christ's anticipated crucifixion.

Which is kinda where I was on that particular point years ago anyway.

All I know is that after these services of the past few days, I have an increased hatred of sin. Before it seemed something to avoid, or else be forgiven for, because I did not want the stain on my own soul (and of course I still do not).

Now, however, in addition, it breaks my heart that much more to be a part of the reason The Beloved was nailed to the Cross.

It makes me want to run from sin much more than I did before.

 

[ArmyMatt]

A monastic on a different board (I think it was Monachos) explained the Atonement is a way that made sense:

1. Death is a giant meat grinder and the Evil One is turning the crank.
2. All of humanity is inexorably drawn towards the grinder, that is, we all die.
3. Christ became man and threw Himself into the meat grinder voluntarily.
4. Christ was like a giant diamond. He was so strong He broke the grinder to bits.
5. The meat grinder is smashed. Christ trampled down death (the grinder) by His death.
6. Because of this, we can all have eternal life.

great way of putting it. I also heard that it was like death was like a giant balloon, and Christ was an eternal amount of air that just burst the balloon because it could not contain Him.