Jesus did not come to save the ((world))

[surrender1]

Matthew 24 is a future prophecy tied to revelation

Yes, it was.

It has to do with what unbelieving Jews will do in the last days that this generation which will not pass until all has been accomplished will witness

When Jesus was speaking to the generation of vipers in which he lived and said, "O generation of vipers..." I believe he was talking about the generation of vipers in which he lived.

When Jesus was speaking to the generation in which he lived and said, "The blood of all the prophets will be required of THIS generation" I believe he was talking about the generation in which he lived.

When Jesus said to the generation in which he lived, "This is an evil generation who will get no sign but the sign of Jonah" I believe he was talking about the generation in which he lived.

When Jesus was speaking to the generation in which he lived and said, "This generation will not pass until all these things..." I believe he was talking about the generation in which he lived.

When they see it, then they are to flee

And actual historical writing documents that they did, indeed, flee.

 

[surrender1]

What was the discussion

You tell me.

 

[miknik5]

"The God is Light and has no Darkness inside of Him" (to my memory, Bible). How would Light have suddenly the satan?! The angel Lucifer has stopped to exist. "In the Day, when you eat from this Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you will die" (to my memory, Bible). "Adam, where are you?" (to my memory, Bible). Adam was partly de-touched from Reality, from the Existence.

Adam hid himself
Something he never had done before

 

[miknik5]

Yes, it was.

When Jesus was speaking to the generation of vipers in which he lived and said, "O generation of vipers..." I believe he was talking about the generation of vipers in which he lived.

When Jesus was speaking to the generation in which he lived and said, "The blood of all the prophets will be required of THIS generation" I believe he was talking about the generation in which he lived.

When Jesus said to the generation in which he lived, "This is an evil generation who will get no sign but the sign of Jonah" I believe he was talking about the generation in which he lived.

When Jesus was speaking to the generation in which he lived and said, "This generation will not pass until all these things..." I believe he was talking about the generation in which he lived.

And actual historical writing documents that they did, indeed, flee.

Does HE still live
And will HE avenge the deaths of all the prophets?

And who cries out to HIM under the altar how long oh sovereign LORD until you avenge our deaths and put an end to all those who destroy the earth?

In Matthew 23, JESUS said:

I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute themfrom city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

(Who are these whom
HE sent and why were they commanded to "go" and what were they commanded say?

And When HE said to Jerusalem,

Jerusalem Jerusalem you who kill the prophets how long I have desired to gather you as a mother gen gathers her chicks but you would not have it, HE wasn't taking to only that generation who heard HIM in HIS first physical ministry

For HE said

You will not see ME again until you say blessed is HE who comes in the NAME of THE LORD

Have they seen HIM

Again?

(And all shall see HIM
Even those who pierced HIM)

 

[Tree of Life]

On “the world”:

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.” (John 15:18-10)

And from Jesus’ famous extended prayer in John 17: “I have given them your Word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.” (John 17:14)

From James: “You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” (James 4:4)

Universalism is a heresy. It denies so much of what Jesus taught about the separation of God’s sheep from Satan’s goats, about the narrow gate and how many will not go in, about the reality of heaven and hell-- and the impassable chasm between the two. Universalism keeps people from fully believing and submitting to Christ, thinking that all will be saved anyway. It is a terrible lie of the devil.

I agree that Universalism is a heresy. But sometimes "world" does not mean "unbelieving world". Consider 1 John 2:2 - "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." Here when John says "whole world" he means "every nation" (not every individual). So the whole world will be saved in the sense that people from all over the world will be saved.

 

[Der Alte]

Much of your rebuttal to my post included an argument against a claim I didn't make.

It would be most helpful if you would read my entire post before replying. My post covered both aspects of the argument burning i.e. garbage/dead bodies. I compiled my previous response about a decade or so ago, after I encountered virtually the same arguments over and over. I didn't feel like editing it to address only the burning dead bodies issue. The archaeological evidence I posted addresses both aspects of the argument. If the hinnom valley was routinely used for burning dead bodies, to the extent that Jesus would have been referring to that rather than Gehenna as hell, there would be evidence. There is no archaeological, historical or documentary evidence supporting that..

 

[Christie insb]

"The God is Light and has no Darkness inside of Him" (to my memory, Bible). How would Light have suddenly the satan?! The angel Lucifer has stopped to exist. "In the Day, when you eat from this Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you will die" (to my memory, Bible). "Adam, where are you?" (to my memory, Bible). Adam was partly de-touched from Reality, from the Existence.

So where did Satan come from?

 

[miknik5]

You tell me.

Why was Jesus walking into Jerusalem

Why did Peter tell HIM, it will not happen

What were they discussing?

You tell me

You should know why HE was going into Jerusalem and you certainly can refer back to the discussion

If you can't figure out why CHRIST had to walk into Jerusalem and why HE referred the reason as the things of GOD, you could refer to Isaiah 53

You could also refer to that HE meant when HE said I did not come to be served but to serve find to give MY life as a random for many

As well as unless a grain of wheat die it abides alone but if it die it brings forth much fruit

 

[miknik5]

So where did Satan come from?

Read Ezekiel 28

Satan was supposed to be a covering angel



He didn't want to cover

 

[Christie insb]

Okay..… The person I was originally addressing said God did not create Satan. I have understood that he was a fallen angel and that God did create him. I think it's unorthodox to say that Satan was not created by God.

 

[miknik5]

Could someone, in light of the topic of this thread expound John 12

 

[surrender1]

Does HE still live

Who? Jesus? Well, of course, Jesus lives. Not sure why you'd ask that.

And will HE avenge the deaths of all the prophets? And who cries out to HIM under the altar how long oh sovereign LORD until you avenge our deaths and put an end to all those who destroy the earth?

The generation to whom Jesus said would be held responsible were held responsible as he said they'd be. The blood of all the prophets, "shed from the foundation of the world," were charged against the generation to whom Jesus spoke (Lk 11).

42“Woe to you Pharisees, because you...
43“Woe to you Pharisees, because...
44“Woe to you, because...
46Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because...
47“Woe to you, because...
50Therefore THIS generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

In Matthew 23, JESUS said:
I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute themfrom city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

See that? Jesus said to them "THIS" generation. And I believe him.

(Who are these whom HE sent

His disciples.

and why were they commanded to "go"

To share news of kingdom.

and what were they commanded say?

All that Jesus taught.

And When HE said to Jerusalem,
Jerusalem Jerusalem you who kill the prophets how long I have desired to gather you as a mother gen gathers her chicks but you would not have it, HE wasn't taking to only that generation who heard HIM in HIS first physical ministry

Yes, he was. He said YOU who kill the prophets. That's a specific group. A group that "killed the prophets" from Abel to Zacharias son of Barachias who was killed between the temple and the altar.

For HE said You will not see ME again until you say blessed is HE who comes in the NAME of THE LORD
Have they seen HIM Again?

Sounds like the "triumphal entry" to me. Don't we sing that every Easter in remembrance of that day?

 

[sdowney717]

He will have mercy on whom He Will have Mercy.

For Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated from the mother's womb.

Before they had done anything good or bad that God's choice according to election might stand. Cause it is all about Him who calls.

Romans 11
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

 

[surrender1]

It would be most helpful if you would read my entire post before replying. My post covered both aspects of the argument burning i.e. garbage/dead bodies. I compiled my previous response about a decade or so ago, after I encountered virtually the same arguments over and over. I didn't feel like editing it to address only the burning dead bodies issue. The archaeological evidence I posted addresses both aspects of the argument. If the hinnom valley was routinely used for burning dead bodies, to the extent that Jesus would have been referring to that rather than Gehenna as hell, there would be evidence. There is no archaeological, historical or documentary evidence supporting that..

Whether or not it was literally used at one time during the days of Joshua to sacrifice children to the god of Moloch and whether or not it was literally the place where God killed a massive number of Assyrians, it was traditionally associated with the location Isaiah refers to in his final chapter about dead *bodies* being devoured by unquenchable fire. In ancient Aramaic translations of this chapter, the dead bodies are explicitly stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom, where the wicked suffered the *second death*.

Jesus confirms the traditional association by describing the Valley of Hinnom in the same way Isaiah describes the location filled with unquenchable fire and maggots. Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment. In this sense, it is analogous to the lake of fire (especially since both are referred to as the 'second death'). To the Jews, the Valley of Hinnom (aka Gehenna) came to mean a place of burning and fiery judgment.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Nobody is born a believer.

I don't know - John the Baptist comes to mind. I believe he was born again in the womb.
M-Bob

 

[miknik5]

Who? Jesus? Well, of course, Jesus lives. Not sure why you'd ask that.

The generation to whom Jesus said would be held responsible were held responsible as he said they'd be. The blood of all the prophets, "shed from the foundation of the world," were charged against the generation to whom Jesus spoke (Lk 11).

42“Woe to you Pharisees, because you...
43“Woe to you Pharisees, because...
44“Woe to you, because...
46Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because...
47“Woe to you, because...
50Therefore THIS generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

See that? Jesus said to them "THIS" generation. And I believe him.

His disciples.

To share news of kingdom.

All that Jesus taught.

Yes, he was. He said YOU who kill the prophets. That's a specific group. A group that "killed the prophets" from Abel to Zacharias son of Barachias who was killed between the temple and the altar.

Sounds like the "triumphal entry" to me. Don't we sing that every Easter in remembrance of that day?

What does ".therefore" mean?

What did HE mean when HE said therefore I will send you prophets?

When HE scolded those who didn't believe inp

Who? Jesus? Well, of course, Jesus lives. Not sure why you'd ask that.

The generation to whom Jesus said would be held responsible were held responsible as he said they'd be. The blood of all the prophets, "shed from the foundation of the world," were charged against the generation to whom Jesus spoke (Lk 11).

42“Woe to you Pharisees, because you...
43“Woe to you Pharisees, because...
44“Woe to you, because...
46Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because...
47“Woe to you, because...
50Therefore THIS generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

See that? Jesus said to them "THIS" generation. And I believe him.

His disciples.

To share news of kingdom.

All that Jesus taught.

Yes, he was. He said YOU who kill the prophets. That's a specific group. A group that "killed the prophets" from Abel to Zacharias son of Barachias who was killed between the temple and the altar.

Sounds like the "triumphal entry" to me. Don't we sing that every Easter in remembrance of that day?

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute themfrom city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Why does CHRIST send prophets?
Why does HE even send witnesses?

Why even is the GOSPEL preached if by CHRIST coming into the world all are saved

Why would HE cry woe to any group of men
And why and how would HE avenge the deaths of every prophet?

Did HE when HE said of that group whose fathers killed the prophets

Wherefore I send you prophets, was HE talking about that past generation or the future generation?

 

[miknik5]

I don't know - John the Baptist comes to mind. I believe he was born again in the womb.
M-Bob

No he was t for the HOLY SPIRIT had not yet been given for CHRIST JESUS had not yet been glorified (John 7:39)

CHRIST testifies of John as none greater born of woman yet the one least in the kingdom is greater

John was not born again
John was not transferred out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of LIGHT in THE SON

Because JESUS had not entered into HIS GLORY (the glory that HE had with THE FATHER before the world ever was) for THE PROMISE to be poured out upon those who.would believe the good news of THE GOSPEL of salvation in, by and through THE SON

 

[miknik5]

Whether or not it was literally used at one time during the days of Joshua to sacrifice children to the god of Moloch and whether or not it was literally the place where God killed a massive number of Assyrians, it was traditionally associated with the location Isaiah refers to in his final chapter about dead *bodies* being devoured by unquenchable fire. In ancient Aramaic translations of this chapter, the dead bodies are explicitly stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom, where the wicked suffered the *second death*.

Jesus confirms the traditional association by describing the Valley of Hinnom in the same way Isaiah describes the location filled with unquenchable fire and maggots. Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment. In this sense, it is analogous to the lake of fire (especially since both are referred to as the 'second death'). To the Jews, the Valley of Hinnom (aka Gehenna) came to mean a place of burning and fiery judgment.

Can you have it both ways?

Can Hell and death be finally and ultimately cast into the Lake of fire and still have these whose names were not found who are said to be cast into the Lake of fire also outside the gates of JERUSALEM still hoping to enter in?

Especially since THE DOOR prior to the resurrection of the dead to be judged was shut

 

[miknik5]

Surrender1
Please explain Matthew 22 with regards to the Wedding garment

This garment is needed prior to one physically dying

If one doesn't have that garment, will GOD be confused?

 

[Von Davidicus]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

I fully agree with you, and this is why I quit taking communion years ago--and why I've considered giving up going to Church. Yes, I believe Christ died for the remission of sins, but not for mine. Even if I have confessed and believed, that means nothing. God alone decides who is Saved and who is Damned.