Jesus did not come to save the ((world))

[miknik5]

There's enough scripture to give me hope that God can and will save the whole world. If there's a way, surely God can find it.

Please explain why there is a book of life?

 

[ljglazner]

So does God choose those for whom he intervenes? Or does a man have to initiate it?



The terms according to you require humans to do the work of choosing to accept Christ and that God's intervention is entirely resistible. If God wants to save person x and person x rejects Him, God has failed to save someone He wanted to save.





So if the work of salvation is 100% God, then what does man's free will have to do with anything? If God does 100% of the work, then He is responsible for 100% of the results, including those He attempts to save, but who reject him nonetheless.

How do you even reconcile those two concepts quoted above? Man cannot save himself, but the choice is ultimately his? If man has the free will to reject God when God wishes to save him, then whether he ends up in heaven or hell is his choice and his alone. Not God's, since God has already made His choice, to stand aside and hope you make the right choice. God is not able to, from this perspective, save anyone without man's help.

There is no actual conflict between God's sovereign choice and man's free will. It is merely a more complicated thing to effect someone's will. Take children, for instance. It is the parents job to shape their lives until they are grown. Some foolishly think they are to do this without the child's will being involved; they just force the kid to go to church, to apologize when they aren't sorry, to say prayers they don't mean etc. This does not TAKE AWAY their free will, you understand. The problem is that it fails to effect their will, and those children do not tend to follow God or their parents path once they are grown. It takes MORE work as a parent and is a trickier process to get the child to WANT to go to church, to pray, to obey God, to be truly sorry when they have done wrong. God is able to work in people's lives like that good parent - effecting their will to align it with his will.

 

[surrender1]

I might ask the same question. Where did I say you said that?

Much of your rebuttal to my post included an argument against a claim I didn't make.

 

[miknik5]

As pointed out above... The Church Fathers on Universalism

Maybe God judges immediately, but Heb. 9:27 doesn't say or even imply "immediately". It just says "after". That could be immediately after death or that could be years after death.

*Gehenna* is commonly translated “hell.” Gehenna is derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. “This was a valley near Jerusalem, and appears to have held this name perhaps as far back as the time of Joshua. This valley was used by the more idolatrous kings of Judah as a place where they would sacrifice their own children to the god Moloch. It may also have been the location where, in a single night, the Messenger of Yahweh killed a massive number of Assyrians from the army of Sennacherib. Going from there, it was traditionally associated with the location Isaiah refers to in his final chapter ('they shall go out' implies exiting Jerusalem into the valley), where *dead* bodies are devoured by unquenchable fire (i.e. fire that does not stop burning until it has completely consumed everything in its path) and undying worms (i.e. the maggots that unceasingly feast upon corpses). In ancient Aramaic translations of this chapter of Isaiah, the dead bodies are explicitly stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom, where the wicked suffered the 'second death'. Jesus confirms the traditional association by describing the Valley of Hinnom in the same way Isaiah describes the location filled with unquenchable fire and maggots. The Valley of Hinnom is only ever used by Jesus (with a single, extraneous usage by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews. He uses it especially when warning them about sinning unrepentantly. Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment. In this sense, it is analogous to the lake of fire (especially since both are referred to as the 'second death'). According to Jesus, God is able to destroy both body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom.” (“The History of Hell” by Mark Edward). See Joshua 18:16, 2 Kings 23:10 and 2 Chron. 33:6. I’d like to emphasize Luke 12:5 where it states that *after* God has killed the wicked ones, He has authority to cast the wicked *dead* into “hell” (actually, Gehenna), which is why it is called the “second death”—the dead body goes through a second death in the unquenchable fire that devours the dead body until it has been completely consumed.

That's nations. *And* the goats are separated because of their lack of *works* (i.e. feeding hungry, clothing poor) during the tribulation that was imminent. So unless you're a works-salvation person, this should make you rethink what Jesus is talking about here. It's not about the final judgment at Jesus' physical return.

Same as above. It's about AD 70.

Same as above. Jesus' primary mission was to warn those living at the time to repent for the kingdom was at hand. Destruction was coming. And did come.

And he called Peter Satan. So, you're wrong about your literal take on that.

That's just a figure of speech. Sinners are outside the gates that are always open. That means God can still work to redeem them. That may be offensive to some but that's what can be gleaned from many scriptures. I remain hopeful. I see a God who can do the unthinkable, the unimaginable...the God of surprises.

That phraseology--children of devil, lost sheep, goat nations--was first and foremost for AD 70 folks. We can still take the lessons but that wasn't written to us living in 2017.

Which people go through here and now who don't experience God.

It doesn't imply "forever dying" in the slightest. As a matter of fact, if you take just the OT, one would have to conclude annihilation is the correct doctrine. The wicked are destroyed forever (Psalm 92:7), not forever being destroyed.

Yeah, it refers to maggots that unceasingly feast upon corpses...you know, *dead* bodies.

More importantly
Why did THE SON of GOD tell Peter to
"Get behind ME, Satan...you do not have the things of GOD in mind"

Is it because ultimately CHRIST knew who was giving Peter wrong information about HIS having to walk this day and the next for it is not possible that a prophet die outside of Jerusalem"

 

[surrender1]

What was the word they heeded that saved them

Mt. 24:15-22 and Luke 21:19-24 where Jesus warns them to flee when they see Jerusalem surrounded.

 

[miknik5]

Mt. 24:15-22 and Luke 21:19-24 where Jesus warns them to flee when they see Jerusalem surrounded.

Much of your rebuttal to my post included an argument against a claim I didn't make.

You claimed there was a place outside of Jerusalem where there were dead bodies burned with unquenchable fire

Yet you suggest because the NEW JERUSALEM's gates will be open that these dead bodies still have a chance?

How?

 

[miknik5]

Mt. 24:15-22 and Luke 21:19-24 where Jesus warns them to flee when they see Jerusalem surrounded.

Matthew 24 is a future prophecy tied to revelation

It has to do with what unbelieving Jews will do in the last days that this generation which will not pass until all has been accomplished will witness

When they see it, then they are to flee

It isn't the destruction of the temple in 70ad

But has to do with the reconstruction of a third temple

Which has not yet happened

But will

 

[surrender1]

Please explain why there is a book of life?

I don't think there's a literal book of life. It's not like God needs pen and paper. But it's the idea that there are those who are experiencing life in Christ and those who are not yet experiencing life in Christ.

 

[miknik5]

I don't think there's a literal book of life. It's not like God needs pen and paper. But it's the idea that there are those who are experiencing life in Christ and those who are not yet experiencing life in Christ.

those whose names are not found, where will they be?

 

[Rajni]

I agree, God never fails.
It is man who rejects the promptings, the pulling on his heart and conscious, it is man who chooses to reject God, it is the failing of the man.

Where does scripture say that all that are sought will be saved?

See post #69.
And that's just for starters.

 

[surrender1]

More importantly
Why did THE SON of GOD tell Peter to
"Get behind ME, Satan...you do not have the things of GOD in mind"

Is it because ultimately CHRIST knew who was giving Peter wrong information about HIS having to walk this day and the next for it is not possible that a prophet die outside of Jerusalem"

Jesus tells Peter in Mt. 16:23 that he had his mind set on man's ways rather than God's. Man's way is through might and power and violence. They expected Messiah to conquer in this way. To push the oppressors out violently and set up their kingdom as in the day of David. God's way is all together different. His way of redemption and restoration of Israel was not what they expected. It was not through might but through meekness, not through power but through submission, not through violence but through peace. And in this same way, the redemption and restoration of the entire world is accomplished. God's plans were not only bigger than the Israelites could imagine but nothing how they expected God to accomplish his plans.

 

[surrender1]

those whose names are not found, where will they be?

It's not literal. Like I said above, it's the idea that there are some not experiencing life in Christ.

 

[JGHorton]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

IMO, universal reconciliation is one of the great heresies of our time - inferring that many will be saved without Jesus Christ.

I've watched this discussion destroy other 'Christian' forums and am pleased that the subject can be discussed on this forum in the context of Scripture - without giving personal opinion equal merit.

 

[surrender1]

You claimed there was a place outside of Jerusalem where there were dead bodies burned with unquenchable fire

Yet you suggest because the NEW JERUSALEM's gates will be open that these dead bodies still have a chance?

How?

All will be resurrected.

 

[surrender1]

IMO, universal reconciliation is one of the great heresies of our time - inferring that many will be saved without Jesus Christ.

Nope. That's not what it teaches.

 

[Rajni]

You are listed as Anglican. An internet search re Anglican universalism might be an eye opener for some Anglicans.

For any Catholics reading the thread, Pope John Paul II's statements about universal salvation might also be an eye-opener. I know they floored me when I first encountered them.

 

[joinfree]

What evidence do you have for that? This seems like you could get into a gnostic heresy with this belief. If God is the Creator of all, doesn't that include Satan? I do not have any hope for Satan's soul but where did he/it come from if not from God?

"The God is Light and has no Darkness inside of Him" (to my memory, Bible). How would Light have suddenly the satan?! The angel Lucifer has stopped to exist. "In the Day, when you eat from this Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you will die" (to my memory, Bible). "Adam, where are you?" (to my memory, Bible). Adam was partly de-touched from Reality, from the Existence.

 

[surrender1]

He will have mercy on whom He Will have Mercy.

For Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated from the mother's womb.

God didn't hate Esau. This passage is talking about the nations (Israel & Edom) that came through each child (cf. Malachi 1:2). The favor God showed Jacob and not Esau was that through no good on Jacob's part and no bad on Esau's part, God chose Jacob as the one through whom the chosen nation would come.

 

[miknik5]

Jesus tells Peter in Mt. 16:23 that he had his mind set on man's ways rather than God's. Man's way is through might and power and violence. They expected Messiah to conquer in this way. To push the oppressors out violently and set up their kingdom as in the day of David. God's way is all together different. His way of redemption and restoration of Israel was not what they expected. It was not through might but through meekness, not through power but through submission, not through violence but through peace. And in this same way, the redemption and restoration of the entire world is accomplished. God's plans were not only bigger than the Israelites could imagine but nothing how they expected God to accomplish his plans.

What was the discussion

 

[Der Alte]

So does God choose those for whom he intervenes? Or does a man have to initiate it?
The terms according to you require humans to do the work of choosing to accept Christ and that God's intervention is entirely resistible. If God wants to save person x and person x rejects Him, God has failed to save someone He wanted to save.
So if the work of salvation is 100% God, then what does man's free will have to do with anything? If God does 100% of the work, then He is responsible for 100% of the results, including those He attempts to save, but who reject him nonetheless.
How do you even reconcile those two concepts quoted above? Man cannot save himself, but the choice is ultimately his? If man has the free will to reject God when God wishes to save him, then whether he ends up in heaven or hell is his choice and his alone. Not God's, since God has already made His choice, to stand aside and hope you make the right choice. God is not able to, from this perspective, save anyone without man's help.

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.