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They were swept away in the flood. It's documented in The Jewish War by Flavius Josephus.What happens to those who did not hear HIS VOICE who did not enter in before the judgement?
Hopefully, they will eventually be redeemed and restored. Rev. 21 says the gates are never shut. And Paul wrote that just as Adam's trespass led to condemnation for *all* men, Jesus' obedience leads to justification and life for *all* men. If all means all in the first half, then all means all in the second half.When they are raised, those who had no part in the first resurrection, what is their outcome?
So does God choose those for whom he intervenes? Or does a man have to initiate it?
You'll have to be more specific.Surrender1,
You'll have to explain your contradicting arguments because they make no sense o me
The biblical evidence for the traditional doctrine of hell (i.e. eternal torment) is extremely weak.Is your argument that you don't. Rlidve there is a hell
There was a national judgment of Israel in AD 70. That was how Yahweh was said to deal with disobedient nations during the days of the Old Covenant. There was also a judgment of mankind and that judgment was seen at the cross--God judged us worthy of saving. As far as consequences, there are always consequences for our behavior, in this life and in the next.yet you believe there is a judgement?
Rev. 21 speaks of the gates to the city of God never being shut. Rev. 21 doesn't speak of "a refuse called Gehenna" and I never spoke of Gehenna ever being a refuse either.Or is your argument that you don't believe there is a hell but outside jerusalems open gates is a refuse called Gehenna where the dead may still hope to enter in?
It's over then! The day of GOD's wrath has ended!Jesus' warnings were to Israel and the coming judgment that took place in AD 70.
You"re rightYou'll have to be more specific.
The biblical evidence for the traditional doctrine of hell (i.e. eternal torment) is extremely weak.
There was a national judgment of Israel in AD 70. That was how Yahweh was said to deal with disobedient nations during the days of the Old Covenant. There was also a judgment of mankind and that judgment was seen at the cross--God judged us worthy of saving. As far as consequences, there are always consequences for our behavior, in this life and in the next.
Rev. 21 speaks of the gates to the city of God never being shut. Rev. 21 doesn't speak of "a refuse called Gehenna" and I never spoke of Gehenna ever being a refuse either.
Okay.Id like to discuss
2 Thessalonians 2
Everyone.I'd also like to discuss the two witnesses, the 144,000 witnesses, and the angels with the everlasting GOSPEL
I'd like to know who these are witnessing to
Jesus.And of whom they are testifying to
To share that the kingdom is at hand.And why?
Many of the leaders loved their position of power and wanted to keep that intact.And why will some be deceived so that they may be condemned who did not have a love of the TRUTH
In judgement for what?Will these witnesses stand in the judgement
Um...well, do you share the same stuff Jesus preached to his disciples and nothing more? Or do you have further revelation from Paul that you include in your sharing of the message of Christ?and will their testimony match yours?
The notion of God's wrath was used in the days of the Old Covenant and how it was said Yahweh dealt with disobedient nations.It's over then! The day of GOD's wrath has ended!
Peace...peace?
Are you sure?
You'll have to clarify. I don't know what you're trying to say.You"re right
You see in your explanation of this place outside of the gates of Jerusalem You conveniently called that place which we identify as HELL ..."Gehenna"
And I conveniently called your portrayal of this burning place where dead bodies and idolatry and pagan worship are practiced "a refuse "
Definitely not a REFUGE nor a place of hope for those who are there
the kingdom is being built up even nowOkay.
Everyone.
Jesus.
To share that the kingdom is at hand.
Many of the leaders loved their position of power and wanted to keep that intact.
In judgement for what?
Um...well, do you share the same stuff Jesus preached to his disciples and nothing more? Or do you have further revelation from Paul that you include in your sharing of the message of Christ?
On your long post explaining Gehenna, you wanted to imply that Gehenna, this heap of burning bodies where live men went to worship molech is not symbolic of HELLYou'll have to clarify. I don't know what you're trying to say.
I imagine that the book "The History of Hell" by Mark Edward is quite interesting but without credible, verifiable, historical evidence his opinions are no more credible or compelling than any other person. Since Mohammad will not go to the mountain I will bring the mountain to Mohammad. I posted this earlier in [post #226] this is a link to the previous post.Not sure we're saying something so different on this part here. As I wrote in my original post on this, it's from "The History of Hell" by Mark Edward. You could do a search on Aramaic translation and Isaiah and second death. If you want the primary source, I'll have to go back and look it up. In any event, there is no strong biblical evidence for the idea of hell as an eternal torture chamber for those who disobey God.
edit to add: Okay, got it for you.
Targum Isaiah 65.5-6: 'Their retribution is in Gehenna where the fire burns all the day. See, it is written before me: I will not give them respite during (their) life, for theirs is the retribution of their sins and I will hand over their body to the second death.' (translation by Martin McNamara, Targum and Testament Revisited)
Hebrew Isaiah 66.24: 'And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.'
Targum Isaiah 66.24 is very close to the Hebrew, but instead of concluding with 'and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh', the Targum says 'and the wicked shall be judged in Gehenna, until the just shall say of them, "we have seen enough"'.
How can a Calvinist witness God's love and the cross to a sinner and at the same time tell them that they may or may not be one of God's chosen people?
I'll post the long version for clarity:On your long post explaining Gehenna, you wanted to imply that Gehenna, this heap of burning bodies where live men went to worship molech is not symbolic of HELL
But it is
You must have missed the edit to my post where I included quotes from the Targum (Aramaic translation.)I imagine that the book "The History of Hell" by Mark Edward is quite interesting but without credible, verifiable, historical evidence his opinions are no more credible or compelling than any other person.
If I were a Jew who had not met Jesus but through the Apostles I was told what Jesus did was for some people but not all people, so that some of them can be saved, and maybe I was one of the lucky ones, that was randomly chosen to be saved, but if not I would be condemned.....that would not be 'good news' to me as a Jew. It would not be a better covenant. So I would stick with the relationship I had with God through the old covenant. Under the old covenant God said that if I had faith, loved and obeyed Him, He would save me, no ifs about it.If it causes them to repent and trust in the Lord -- probably chosen.
If it's foolishness to them -- probably (at least at this time) showing signs of not being chosen.
His sheep will know his voice -- once the blinders have been removed -- requires a new heart.
Still nothing man can do -- heart transplant performed only by the Holy Spirit.
M-Bob
So if the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, what is that? A figment of our imagination?The scientific support isn't enough? To be in war against God is to be in war against own Father. It is denial of own Existence.
I have questions for you.The terms according to you require humans to do the work of choosing to accept Christ
My problem with this source is the writer does not quote the scripture he refers to. He says e.g. "Jeremiah identifies the Valley as outside the Potsherd Gate" His citations are very sloppy. The word "potsherd" does not occur anywhere in the book of Jeremiah in the KJV or the JPS. This source also says that "Nehemiah also appears to place the Valley outside the Dung Gate." Nehemiah mentions the valley of Hinnom only one time but not in association with the dung gate. Nehemiah 11:30...
Jeremiah identifies the Valley as outside the Potsherd Gate (and Jeremiah then smashes a jar in the Valley), and Nehemiah also appears to place the Valley outside the Dung Gate; the Valley had some association with broken pottery and feces, the city's waste.
Accurate so far.Our primary interest in the Valley of Hinnom begins with the Book of Jeremiah, where the prophet twice uses the Valley as an illustration. Just as the people in Jerusalem had burned their own children as sacrifices in the Valley of Hinnom (7.31; 19.4-5), so God would ignite a fire outside the gates of Jerusalem (17.27) and the people would be 'slaughtered' and buried in the Valley (7.32; 19.6).
The name valley of Hinnom does not occur in the Targum Isaiah 66:24 which I happen to have.After the Babylonian exile, readers of the Book of Isaiah inferred the Valley's presence in verse 66.24 and actually inserted its name into the text in Aramaic translation-paraphrases of the book. The Valley of Hinnom appears further in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and Talmud (collections of Rabbinic discussions, rulings, and theological musings), where it is variously identified as a place of remedial punishment or total annihilation.
This is patently false as I have shown more than once in this thread from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud. This writer twists sources to support his assumptions/presuppositions....When, for example, Jesus warns that it would be better to lose one's eye than to suffer in 'Hell', the Greek text uses 'Gehenna', the Valley of Hinnom. The way Jesus describes the Valley of Hinnom shows an affinity with the imagery found in Isaiah and Jeremiah, rather than the afterlife-punishment found in the later Rabbinic sources: Jesus warns of fire in the Valley of Hinnom (Jeremiah 17.27; 19.6), it is where the fire cannot be extinguished and the consuming maggots live on (Isaiah 66.24),
The Assyrian empire was merely killed in this life which has nothing to do with Gehenna..and he especially invokes it when talking about the imminent destruction of Jerusalem and its leadership. Jesus also describes the Valley of Hinnom as the place where God can destroy both soul and body, echoing Isaiah 10.18, a prophecy about the downfall of the Assyrian kingdom." (Mark Edward)
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