It's the definition of sovereign that's the problem. In ancient times, it referred to the authority a king has over his kingdom. It's not meticulous control.
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It's the definition of sovereign that's the problem. In ancient times, it referred to the authority a king has over his kingdom. It's not meticulous control.Many don't like the idea that God is sovereign. It creates competition for them.
In some sense the whole world will be saved. It just depends on what you mean by "whole" and "world".
It's the definition of sovereign that's the problem. In ancient times, it referred to the authority a king has over his kingdom. It's not meticulous control.
Paul was "of the world" until he wasn't. So there you have it, God *can* save the whole world.On “the world”:
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.” (John 15:18-10)
And from Jesus’ famous extended prayer in John 17: “I have given them your Word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.” (John 17:14)
From James: “You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” (James 4:4)
Universalism
That's nations. *And* the goats are separated because of their lack of *works* (i.e. feeding hungry, clothing poor) during the tribulation that was imminent. So unless you're a works-salvation person, this should make you rethink what Jesus is talking about here. It's not about the final judgment at Jesus' physical return.is a heresy. It denies so much of what Jesus taught about the separation of God’s sheep from Satan’s goats,
The narrow gate is the way of peace, which is Jesus' way. Many chose to go the way of violence and were swept away in "the flood" at the coming destruction rather than heeding Jesus' words to flee when the armies were surrounding Jerusalem.about the narrow gate and how many will not go in,
One can't create an entire doctrine on a parable. Jesus *never* mentions hell. Hell is mentioned *only one time* in scripture and it's referring the abode of fallen angels ("Tartarus") awaiting judgment (2 Peter 2:4). So, hell is not eternal and it's not for humans.about the reality of heaven and hell-- and the impassable chasm between the two.
I know many who adhere to the doctrine and they are some of the most committed Christians I have ever met.Universalism keeps people from fully believing and submitting to Christ,
Maybe it's your doctrine that's a lie?thinking that all will be saved anyway. It is a terrible lie of the devil.
It does not say everybody in the world did God love with a great love.
Where we read about God's great love is here.
Only God can answer why he loved us with that great love so that He made us alive. It was not because we believed, as we were following Satan at that time.
Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
In Ephesians 1, Paul tells us we, the saints, were 'chosen in Him' (Christ) from the foundation of the world.
Universalism is a heresy. It denies so much of what Jesus taught about the separation of God’s sheep from Satan’s goats, about the narrow gate and how many will not go in, about the reality of heaven and hell-- and the impassable chasm between the two.
Universalism keeps people from fully believing and submitting to Christ, thinking that all will be saved anyway.
Paul was "of the world" until he wasn't. So there you have it, God *can* save the whole world.
That's nations. *And* the goats are separated because of their lack of *works* (i.e. feeding hungry, clothing poor) during the tribulation that was imminent. So unless you're a works-salvation person, this should make you rethink what Jesus is talking about here. It's not about the final judgment at Jesus' physical return.
The narrow gate is the way of peace, which is Jesus' way. Many chose to go the way of violence and were swept away in "the flood" at the coming destruction rather than heeding Jesus' words to flee when the armies were surrounding Jerusalem.
One can't create an entire doctrine on a parable. Jesus *never* mentions hell. Hell is mentioned *only one time* in scripture and it's referring the abode of fallen angels ("Tartarus") awaiting judgment (2 Peter 2:4). So, hell is not eternal and it's not for humans.
I know many who adhere to the doctrine and they are some of the most committed Christians I have ever met.
Maybe it's your doctrine that's a lie?
Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
If all means all in the first half then all means all in the second half.
And we have been shown by God himself exactly *how* he "deals with sin and rebellion." As God's enemies were murdering Jesus on the cross, Jesus asked his Father to forgive them, because Jesus does only what he sees the Father doing. God through Jesus shows us a better way. A way that does not include force or violence. A way that includes submission and peace. It is through this "narrow way" that God deals with sin and rebellion. And it is this "narrow way" we are to enter into his kingdom.Yes. It also refers to God's perfect plan to deal with sin and the rebellion of human beings and angels (demons).
Man's power is might and force, often because man is limited in his wisdom and resources. God's power is not like man's power. God will accomplish his will through a way that is not like the way of men (i.e. force, violence) when they want to accomplish their will.It will all work out in the end according to God's will because God IS that powerful.
And the very ending of the Bible (Rev. 21) says that the gates will *never* be shut. Given enough opportunity and time, God can save any lost and wandering soul living outside the gates. If I have enough patience to wait for my wayward son, surely God has enough to wait for his. I'm willing to bet God's patience is endless.But He is also just and gracious beyond our understanding. He will not force anyone into heaven who does not want to be with Him as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. No unrepentant sinners will be in heaven. All those in heaven will believe and trust in Christ.
The end of Revelation gives room for hope.And in His omniscience, He has always known who would desire Him and who would not. And He has shown by His teachings that not all will end up with Him.
Don't worry the Lord Jesus himself will burn up everything that is unrighteous before him ....Man I hate interfaith. if I could I would burn any concept of it, its world peace from the minds of all
men. But I have not that power.
In God's perspective, some people by their very nature are not of the same species as His own people, some being children of Satan rather than children of God (John 8:40-47, 1 John 3:10).
Hope for all is good. I rushed out and told my family, my friends, my neighbours, strangers and work mates the good news ofI am crazy enough to believe if God wants ALL to be saved then we should pray for all people. But hey whatever helps you sleep better at night.
Could God desire that all people repent and be saved but only on His terms?Let us not forget as Simple Men that God is God and if he wanted ALL PEOPLE to be saved -- that is Exactly what He would do -- period. ...
You may have only planted the seed and someone else watered that seed. Don't be sad, you don't know how many of the seeds grew into full growth believers. Some day you will know and God will recognize your efforts.I have preached the gospel to hundreds of people and sadly I can count on one hand the number of people who have believed the
gospel (Acts 2:38) and come into the body of Christ.
As pointed out above... The Church Fathers on UniversalismWow. 2000 years of traditional Apostolic interpretations are against you.
Maybe God judges immediately, but Heb. 9:27 doesn't say or even imply "immediately". It just says "after". That could be immediately after death or that could be years after death.At death, God apparently judges us immediately and we go to the afterlife place where we fit in. Hebrews 9:27 reads: "...it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."
*Gehenna* is commonly translated “hell.” Gehenna is derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. “This was a valley near Jerusalem, and appears to have held this name perhaps as far back as the time of Joshua. This valley was used by the more idolatrous kings of Judah as a place where they would sacrifice their own children to the god Moloch. It may also have been the location where, in a single night, the Messenger of Yahweh killed a massive number of Assyrians from the army of Sennacherib. Going from there, it was traditionally associated with the location Isaiah refers to in his final chapter ('they shall go out' implies exiting Jerusalem into the valley), where *dead* bodies are devoured by unquenchable fire (i.e. fire that does not stop burning until it has completely consumed everything in its path) and undying worms (i.e. the maggots that unceasingly feast upon corpses). In ancient Aramaic translations of this chapter of Isaiah, the dead bodies are explicitly stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom, where the wicked suffered the 'second death'. Jesus confirms the traditional association by describing the Valley of Hinnom in the same way Isaiah describes the location filled with unquenchable fire and maggots. The Valley of Hinnom is only ever used by Jesus (with a single, extraneous usage by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews. He uses it especially when warning them about sinning unrepentantly. Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment. In this sense, it is analogous to the lake of fire (especially since both are referred to as the 'second death'). According to Jesus, God is able to destroy both body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom.” (“The History of Hell” by Mark Edward). See Joshua 18:16, 2 Kings 23:10 and 2 Chron. 33:6. I’d like to emphasize Luke 12:5 where it states that *after* God has killed the wicked ones, He has authority to cast the wicked *dead* into “hell” (actually, Gehenna), which is why it is called the “second death”—the dead body goes through a second death in the unquenchable fire that devours the dead body until it has been completely consumed.Speaking of judgment, there is coming the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).
That's nations. *And* the goats are separated because of their lack of *works* (i.e. feeding hungry, clothing poor) during the tribulation that was imminent. So unless you're a works-salvation person, this should make you rethink what Jesus is talking about here. It's not about the final judgment at Jesus' physical return.Four metaphors of Jesus in the Gospels come to mind regarding this event: (1) The goats will be forever separated from God's sheep (Matt 25:31-34, 41)
Same as above. It's about AD 70.(2) the chaff will be forever separated from the wheat (Matt 3:12, Luke 3:17),
Same as above. Jesus' primary mission was to warn those living at the time to repent for the kingdom was at hand. Destruction was coming. And did come.(3) the weeds will be forever separated from the true crop-- and then be destroyed (Matt 13:24-30).
And he called Peter Satan. So, you're wrong about your literal take on that.(4) In God's perspective, some people by their very nature are not of the same species as His own people, some being children of Satan rather than children of God (John 8:40-47, 1 John 3:10).
That's just a figure of speech. Sinners are outside the gates that are always open. That means God can still work to redeem them. That may be offensive to some but that's what can be gleaned from many scriptures. I remain hopeful. I see a God who can do the unthinkable, the unimaginable...the God of surprises.Heaven will have no children of Satan.
That phraseology--children of devil, lost sheep, goat nations--was first and foremost for AD 70 folks. We can still take the lessons but that wasn't written to us living in 2017.God knew who would be saved from the beginning, that is, who are children of God and who are children of the devil. We cannot tell who is who yet and so we should never judge; a person may repent and turn out to be a lost sheep, not a goat.
Which people go through here and now who don't experience God....therefore separation from God must mean an absence of these things. This is Hell: hate, darkness, despair, bitterness, conflict, pain, and dying.
It doesn't imply "forever dying" in the slightest. As a matter of fact, if you take just the OT, one would have to conclude annihilation is the correct doctrine. The wicked are destroyed forever (Psalm 92:7), not forever being destroyed.The Lake of Fire is called the "second death" which suggests that there is a 'forever dying process' occurring,
Yeah, it refers to maggots that unceasingly feast upon corpses...you know, *dead* bodies.where the "the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48, quote from Isaiah 66:24). These warnings were made to human beings, not to angels/demons.
Yeah, the idea of world peace and unity is so godless. There is no way God would want to accomplish world peace and unity.the worst most wicked religion ever to be born. and by grace I will die long before I accept
any version of its world peace and unity.
And if God allows postmortem conversion are you going to be offended?Jesus is the savoir of the world, but not the whole world will come to him to receive it.
That was in the context of the coming judgment of AD 70. Do you really think God would want any creature to suffer for all eternity?He even thanked the Father it was hid from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babes.
And God's way is not the way of hate. We are to even love our enemies. That's a narrow way.Man I hate interfaith. if I could I would burn any concept of it, its world peace from the minds of all
men. But I have not that power.
Only the desire to preach the real and only gospel of peace
which is the only peace a man can have. CHRIST , the reconciliation between GOD and mankind.
And we have been shown by God himself exactly *how* he "deals with sin and rebellion." As God's enemies were murdering Jesus on the cross, Jesus asked his Father to forgive them, because Jesus does only what he sees the Father doing. God through Jesus shows us a better way. A way that does not include force or violence. A way that includes submission and peace. It is through this "narrow way" that God deals with sin and rebellion. And it is this "narrow way" we are to enter into his kingdom.
Man's power is might and force, often because man is limited in his wisdom and resources. God's power is not like man's power. God will accomplish his will through a way that is not like the way of men (i.e. force, violence) when they want to accomplish their will.
And the very ending of the Bible (Rev. 21) says that the gates will *never* be shut. Given enough opportunity and time, God can save any lost and wandering soul living outside the gates. If I have enough patience to wait for my wayward son, surely God has enough to wait for his. I'm willing to bet God's patience is endless.
The end of Revelation gives room for hope.
Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
If all means all in the first half then all means all in the second half.
1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV)Yeah, the idea of world peace and unity is so godless. There is no way God would want to accomplish world peace and unity.
And if God allows postmortem conversion are you going to be offended?
Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
If all means all in the first half then all means all in the second half.
That was in the context of the coming judgment of AD 70. Do you really think God would want any creature to suffer for all eternity?
And God's way is not the way of hate. We are to even love our enemies. That's a narrow way.
I think you mean the Arminian doctrine seeing that there is only one God.Help me understand then the Arminian God.
NO ONE can come to God without God's intervention.How can we say that God wants to save everyone if it's entirely man's choice?
No why should it? God set the terms by which man would be saved.If God wants to save someone and they reject Him then does that make God a failure?
Again there is only One Devine God, there is no other. This is rather a silly question in my view but God can do anything He wants to do. But God has left us with His scriptures telling us what He has done so that man could be saved.Can this God save anyone if no one wants to be saved?
Man cannot save himself, not by willing it to be so, not by running (working for it), it is purely a gift from God.It seems to me that this God makes salvation possible, but He doesn't actually save anyone, as that can apparently only be done through each individual's will.
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