Jesus Christ was not a Carpenter.

[marktheblake]

Mat 4:18-20. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
“Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.”
At once they left their nets and followed him.
Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

SO, what we have here is a complete stranger walk up to fisherman, says "follow me" and AT ONCE they abandoned their livelyhood, their lives, their wives and their BOAT. (Peter was married)

Can you beleive that a man would give up his boat so easily? How many times has a boat broken a marriage

Later we see Mat 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

This occured in a town by the the lake. Who was Matthew collecting taxes from? Fishermen! This guy had a lucrative career in legal thievery. Yet based on two words "Follow Me" from a stranger, he abandoned all he had, and joined a group of men that would harbour a desire to kill him if they could.

Does a carpenter have this kind of power or authority over men?

Imagine, you come home to your wife and kids and say "Hey, there was this guy, he said "follow me", and ahhhh, I am outa here" Your family would certify you as insane.

Jesus Christ was no ordinary carpenter or man, but what was he before he entered public life, and what evidence do we have that helps us determine this?

p.s. Credit for this line of thinking goes to Shane Willard a travelling evangelist.

 

[Korah]

Interesting, but implies a heretical approach to the Bible or plain ignorance.
Yes, Mt. 13:55 says Jesus was the son of a carpenter, and I tend to believe that's the best understanding, even though Mk 6:3 says that Jesus was a carpenter (just by inherited title from his father?). But John 1 shows Andrew bringing Peter to Jesus before the call to leave the boats. In addition most conservatives say John was in John 1 as well (though I disagree).
Korah

 

[marktheblake]

Interesting, but implies a heretical approach to the Bible or plain ignorance.

I am not sure why is that heretical? Unless you are thinking along the lines that we have usually assumed that it is scriptural that he spent the first 30 years of his life cutting wood.

even though Mk 6:3 says that Jesus was a carpenter (just by inherited title from his father?).

Thanks, I didnt notice that one before, but its a great point towards this theme. If you read on to Mk 6:4 he makes it clear that his home town does not recognise him for who he really is.

I think it would be safe to say that Jesus had being away from Nazareth for quite a while, and was no longer the "carpenters son". Sure he may have done a bit of work in the woodshop, but a carpenter he was not.

 

[mercutio1562]

Interesting thread.

 

[sobujos]

I like this too...

 

[marktheblake]

So back to the original point, what is it that drove these guys abandon all they had, and followed one who seems to us, to be a simple carpenter? (yeah we know he wasnt, but he had not started his public life yet)

Think back to your own childhood, what did you want to be when you grew up? a bank clerk, a postman, a garbage collector? NO WAY, you all wanted to be the best of the best of the best at whatever you favourite sport was. You lived it and you dreamed it, and you played that game right through school. (Lets use Soccer as an example cos I dont know which country you all come from)

Now the guys that end up playing for Real Madrid or Man U are the best of the best of the best and account for say the top .01 % best in the world (just a throw away statistic for an example).

That means at some stage of 99.99% of these young boys soccer career, the coach is gunna tell him, Sorry you didnt make the team, go back to your studies and get another career, perhaps end up being a bank clerk, post office worker or garbage man.

So 10 years on you are collecting the garbage in Los Angeles and David Beckham comes out of his house, takes one look and says "I want you to come with me, play in my team, the LA Galaxy first 11, with me, and I will train you"

Are you gunna say "nah, sorry Dave, i gotta empty these cans man" NO WAY, you are going drop those garbage cans without 1 seconds thought and you will go with him, because you have just been given a guaranteed 2nd chance at that childhood dream that was shattered when the coach cut you from the team.

SO what did little kids in Israel dream of becoming when they grew up? they didnt play soccer back then, and carpenter wasnt exactly a dream career either

 

[Yin717]

I thought it mentioned in the bible that Jesus was trained as carpenter by Joespeh? Either way Jesus is the Son of God and he wants people to follow the good word of God. That's the authority his have over them. However it does say in Matthew

'Jesus was in the Temple and while he was teaching there, the leading priests and the older leaders came to him. They said 'What authority do you have to do these things? Who gave you this authority?
Jesus answered 'I also will ask you a question. If you answer me, then I will tell you what authority I have to do these things. Tell me: when John baptized people, did that come from God or ordinary people?'
They argued over Jesus' question, saying, ' If we answer John's baptism was from God Jesus will say, Then why didn't you believe him?' But if we say 'It was from the people' we are afraid of what the crowd will do because they all believe that John was a prophet.'
So they answered Jesus, ' We don't know.'
Jesus said to them, 'Then I won't tell you what authority I have to do these things.'

Now this may seem irrelevent but think it trhough. If it is irrlevent then I have no idea about what I am on about and still need guidence.

 

[Yardstick]

Carpenter is a mistranslation. What was meant was that he was that he worked with his hands. He was a skilled laborer. Most likely he worked with stone and we would know him as a mason.


If I had to guess, I would say the reasons the disciples dropped what they were doing and abandoned there families so quickly was because they sensed the divine presence of God when Jesus spoke to them.

I think your theorizing of little isrealites wishing to be sports stars is westernizing a people who weren't like us in that regard. I doubt there was much dreaming of moving up in the world from your current position. This is a product of capitalism. They knew they were destined to do what their fathers did.

 

[marktheblake]

If I had to guess, I would say the reasons the disciples dropped what they were doing and abandoned there families so quickly was because they sensed the divine presence of God when Jesus spoke to them.

Have you thought about that realistically? Are you going to go home and tell your wife and kids you are abandoning them because some guy who seems to have a divine presence called you?. Your wife will think you have gone gay on her.

I think your theorizing of little isrealites wishing to be sports stars is westernizing a people who weren't like us in that regard.

No. There was only one honour in that era that little kids could aspire to and it was a great one - to become a Rabbi, and it started when they were little very young.

To be accepted into Rabbi school started when they were 6, and to get in, they had to have learned to recite the entire Book of Leviticus, this stage is called the Beth Safar If they couldnt, they were told, "sorry, you are not good enough, go back to your family and follow your fathers trade"

During the Beth Safar they would have to learn to recite the entire Torah. To graduate to the next stage would take place at age 12 the test was not whether they could recite the Torah, or to answer questions, the test was on whether they could ask great questions in order to encourage learning from their own students.

A great Rabbi was never known for answering questions, they were known for asking question.

Now what did we find Jesus doing when he was 12?
He was in the temple asking questions, and they were amazed by his understanding

Now if a Rabbi student didnt pass the examination, guess what, he was told "sorry, you are not good enough, go back to your family and follow your fathers trade" and off he went, shattered.

There are many more stages to follow, and at the end of each stage, if the student does not pass, he is sent home as before, until very few are left, at age 30. These guys are the best of the best of the best.

Now there are two types of Rabbi, the common one has to teach what his Rabbi taught him, and the very very rare one, was able to interpret the scriptures and teach his new teaching. This authority the Rabbi has is called "schmika" and his teaching is called his 'Yoke". This Rabbi was the best of the best of the best of the best!

When a Rabbis graduated, he would collect his disciples from Rabbi school - age 14 and up i think. The students would approach a Rabbi and ask to be a disciple. The Rabbi would test the prospective student and if he thought that he would make it and more to the point, to be like him, he would announce this acceptance by saying "follow me"

anyone still think Jesus was a carpenter?

 

[Gareth]

The Bible says he was. Joseph was a carpenter and raised Jesus as his own son. This is why Jesus' became known as "the carpenter's son." (Matt. 13:54,55. Mark 6:3) But he was not of Joseph's flesh and blood.

Further no-one would just leave their livelihood and follow Jesus. The Bible states that two of Jesus' disciples were followers of John the Baptist, who when Jesus approached them followed him after John said, " See, the Lamb of God". These two were Andrew and John. Andrew went to tell Peter his brother who was a fisherman and a well to do one at that for they had hired men helping them. John was the brother of James and all were involved with fishing. So that's four men who gave up their part in a business to follow the Lord. They would of made sure their dependants were taken cared for so that they wouldn't go without. Before they were called out properly, Jesus had made contact with them, after all he had been preaching on his own for a time before calling his followers. Further after Jesus' death what was the one of the first things Peter did? He went fishing. Hardly a thing for a man to do unless he had been a part of a going family concern.

 

[joelhall]

id have thought it fairly evident that hed started his ministry in his late 20s. he would have been working following his fathers trade whilst he studied the scriptures as was common for young jewish men hoping to enter into their ministry later. clearly his name had been heard of as a rabbi by this time, as others such as john the baptist knew who he was.

he would not have simply quit carpentry one day then gone off the next.

god be with you.

 

[JuliusRaphael]

Mat 4:18-20. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
“Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.”
At once they left their nets and followed him.
Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

SO, what we have here is a complete stranger walk up to fisherman, says "follow me" and AT ONCE they abandoned their livelyhood, their lives, their wives and their BOAT. (Peter was married)

Can you beleive that a man would give up his boat so easily? How many times has a boat broken a marriage

Later we see Mat 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

This occured in a town by the the lake. Who was Matthew collecting taxes from? Fishermen! This guy had a lucrative career in legal thievery. Yet based on two words "Follow Me" from a stranger, he abandoned all he had, and joined a group of men that would harbour a desire to kill him if they could.

...

Imagine, you come home to your wife and kids and say "Hey, there was this guy, he said "follow me", and ahhhh, I am outa here" Your family would certify you as insane.

...

One thing that poped into my mind when I read this was, was is that simple?

I mean did Jesus JUST say :“Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.” and they left with him or was it more of a conversation?

Like he presented himself as the son of God since these were his future diciples and talked a while with them, almost like evangalising on the street.
Later this was shortned down in the Gospels to not have to much details, to quickly described that he had a conversation over a cup of tea with them and they decided to leave with him directly. Left their nets means they left their buisness.

Or is it really a literal description of what happend he walked by the laked waved his hand at them, told them to come with him and so they did.

What do you think?

 

[hollyanglo]

Does'nt the fact that the disciples always referred to Jesus as "Rabbi" count for something? It seems to me that Jesus was part of the Jewish religious orders as we do see him even teaching at the synagogue. Carpentry could have been something he was doing before entering full time ministry. Just my two cents worth.

 

[hollyanglo]

One thing that poped into my mind when I read this was, was is that simple?

I mean did Jesus JUST say :“Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.” and they left with him or was it more of a conversation?

Like he presented himself as the son of God since these were his future diciples and talked a while with them, almost like evangalising on the street.
Later this was shortned down in the Gospels to not have to much details, to quickly described that he had a conversation over a cup of tea with them and they decided to leave with him directly. Left their nets means they left their buisness.

Or is it really a literal description of what happend he walked by the laked waved his hand at them, told them to come with him and so they did.

What do you think?

we need to also keep in mind that it was not until Peter's confession that the disciples new Jesus as God. I could even take a chance and say probably it was not until the Resurrection, because peter's confession comes about as a spare of the moment revelation (if there is such a thing). My only explanation is that Jesus was a Rabbi, which from what i have been thought it was common at the time for Rabbi's to have disciples.

he could have done carpentry also before starting his earthly ministry. for me there is nothing strange about this idea, especially if his father Joseph was a carpenter.

 

[hollyanglo]

Have you thought about that realistically? Are you going to go home and tell your wife and kids you are abandoning them because some guy who seems to have a divine presence called you?. Your wife will think you have gone gay on her.

No. There was only one honour in that era that little kids could aspire to and it was a great one - to become a Rabbi, and it started when they were little very young.

To be accepted into Rabbi school started when they were 6, and to get in, they had to have learned to recite the entire Book of Leviticus, this stage is called the Beth Safar If they couldnt, they were told, "sorry, you are not good enough, go back to your family and follow your fathers trade"

During the Beth Safar they would have to learn to recite the entire Torah. To graduate to the next stage would take place at age 12 the test was not whether they could recite the Torah, or to answer questions, the test was on whether they could ask great questions in order to encourage learning from their own students.

A great Rabbi was never known for answering questions, they were known for asking question.

Now what did we find Jesus doing when he was 12?
He was in the temple asking questions, and they were amazed by his understanding

Now if a Rabbi student didnt pass the examination, guess what, he was told "sorry, you are not good enough, go back to your family and follow your fathers trade" and off he went, shattered.

There are many more stages to follow, and at the end of each stage, if the student does not pass, he is sent home as before, until very few are left, at age 30. These guys are the best of the best of the best.

Now there are two types of Rabbi, the common one has to teach what his Rabbi taught him, and the very very rare one, was able to interpret the scriptures and teach his new teaching. This authority the Rabbi has is called "schmika" and his teaching is called his 'Yoke". This Rabbi was the best of the best of the best of the best!

When a Rabbis graduated, he would collect his disciples from Rabbi school - age 14 and up i think. The students would approach a Rabbi and ask to be a disciple. The Rabbi would test the prospective student and if he thought that he would make it and more to the point, to be like him, he would announce this acceptance by saying "follow me"

anyone still think Jesus was a carpenter?

I agree with you about the Rabbi part, what i don't understand is why he could'nt have been a carpenter as well, before starting his ministry.
the Lord was raised by Joseph and mary in a society that was following certain norms. We have no reason to believe that jesus was raised differently from other boys. He must have gone to Rabbi school, but like the rest of us, he must have been expected to work on the family business after school?

 

[marktheblake]

he would have been working following his fathers trade whilst he studied the scriptures as was common for young jewish men hoping to enter into their ministry later.

To become a Rabbis, a jewish boy had to commence his training as soon as he could walk. He would have to be formally in Rabbi school from age of 5 to about 30.

One thing that poped into my mind when I read this was, was is that simple?

Yes, for the reasons stated, I think the theory fits what exactly is written quite well. I do not think it is legitimate to propose that the text might not be exactly as it seems in order to falsify the theory (as such).

I agree with you about the Rabbi part, what i don't understand is why he could'nt have been a carpenter as well, before starting his ministry.

I am not suggesting at all that Jesus never banged a nail into a piece of wood, obviously he would have done a lot of that regardless of any career path he might have taken.

I deliberately titled this thread with the catchy line to generate interest (hoped to get more?), the point I am making is that most people think he was 'just a carpenter' for the first 30 years of his life, and the hypothesis is pointing towards that he was much more than that.

That this is never stated in the Gospels is probably because it was so obvious to the intended audience, that it did not need to be.

 

[Gareth]

Although called Rabbi by some, it is evident that Jesus never attended the Rabbinic schools because some of his listeners asked a question as found in John 7:14,15. Jesus was never biased towards those whom the Rabbis and other teachers of the Law called "the people of the earth" or the common people. At end of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus' listeners were astounded at his way of teaching, he having taught like a person having authority and not like what they were normally used to. This dovetales nicely towards what he later said (Matt. 11:28-30) about all those toiling and weighed down, to come to him and he would refresh them. Why? Because his yoke was kindly and his load was light. He could not of said this with any degree of sincerity if it was not true.

Jesus was approachable, kind, loving, decent. All the qualities that one who came in God's name as the Messiah would show to all. There is far more to Jesus than many of us can appreciate. In a few months time peoples attention will be fixed on a little baby in a manger. Not that is bad in itself for that is what happened. Yet what is Jesus doing right now? He is in heaven, waiting to do his Father's bidding. What do you think is more important? Looking back or looking forward? Although Jesus' early life and his subsequent ministy was important, what he will do and succeed in doing in the future is also important. It is quite simply, life-saving, both yours and mine.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Does'nt the fact that the disciples always referred to Jesus as "Rabbi" count for something? It seems to me that Jesus was part of the Jewish religious orders as we do see him even teaching at the synagogue. Carpentry could have been something he was doing before entering full time ministry. Just my two cents worth.

The concept of a rabbi in the sense we generally understand it today had not yet developed fully within the Jewish religious tradition in the first century. Rabbi simply means "teacher", and it may very well be that when people questioned "by what authority does He do/say this?" it could possibly be because He wasn't a formally trained rabbi who had studied under someone important like a Hillel or Shammai; sort of like "who do you think you are?". Luke, of course, tells us that He "grew in wisdom and stature" and then places Him at the age of 12 at the Temple making the teachers of Torah there amazed at His knowledge and wisdom, so that's interesting.

Mark, of course, calls Him a carpenter and He is also called "the carpenter's son" as has been noted, so there's no good reason to think that prior to the advent of His ministry that He had known any other vocation.

It was only when He started His ministry that, as an expounder of Torah and a traveling preacher that people began to call Him rabbi--though there is no reason to believe that He received formal training from any well established rabbinic school (again, such as Hillel or Shammai), though Jesus does seem to demonstrate a working knowledge as when He says, "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you," is essentially a re-wording of Hillel's famous statement, "What is hateful to you, do not do unto others. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary." And when discussing matters of divorce, Jesus seems to weigh in with His own rabbinic opinion, and would seem in this instance to be on the side of Shammai (who said that a man may only divorce his wife for a serious offense, whereas Hillel permitted divorce for trivial things, even burning his dinner!)

So from that, yes, He was a traveling rabbi (even if not a formally trained one); though that doesn't mean that He hadn't been trained by Joseph's hand as a carpenter and knew that as His trade prior the onset of His messianic ministry.

EDIT: Oh, and on this (since it only really now caught my eye):

It seems to me that Jesus was part of the Jewish religious orders as we do see him even teaching at the synagogue.

It should be pointed out that in the synagogue the men took turns reading from the Scrolls, which is what Luke has Jesus doing at the synagogue at Nazareth, it was his turn that Sabbath to give the reading from the Scroll. This practice has continued even to today, though women are now also able to read from the Scroll (at least in Reform synagogues and the like, I'm not sure if this is true of Orthodox or Hasidic synagogues or not).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ks777]

Carpenter is a mistranslation. What was meant was that he was that he worked with his hands. He was a skilled laborer. Most likely he worked with stone and we would know him as a mason.


If I had to guess, I would say the reasons the disciples dropped what they were doing and abandoned there families so quickly was because they sensed the divine presence of God when Jesus spoke to them.

I think your theorizing of little isrealites wishing to be sports stars is westernizing a people who weren't like us in that regard. I doubt there was much dreaming of moving up in the world from your current position. This is a product of capitalism. They knew they were destined to do what their fathers did.

Yeah, it's funny how people use english translations of translations as evidence. I agree, I'm inclined to think Yahshua worked with stone too.

 

[Goinheix]

Mat 4:18-20. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
“Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.”
At once they left their nets and followed him.
Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

SO, what we have here is a complete stranger walk up to fisherman, says "follow me" and AT ONCE they abandoned their livelyhood, their lives, their wives and their BOAT. (Peter was married)

Can you beleive that a man would give up his boat so easily? How many times has a boat broken a marriage

Later we see Mat 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

This occured in a town by the the lake. Who was Matthew collecting taxes from? Fishermen! This guy had a lucrative career in legal thievery. Yet based on two words "Follow Me" from a stranger, he abandoned all he had, and joined a group of men that would harbour a desire to kill him if they could.

Does a carpenter have this kind of power or authority over men?

Imagine, you come home to your wife and kids and say "Hey, there was this guy, he said "follow me", and ahhhh, I am outa here" Your family would certify you as insane.

Jesus Christ was no ordinary carpenter or man, but what was he before he entered public life, and what evidence do we have that helps us determine this?

p.s. Credit for this line of thinking goes to Shane Willard a travelling evangelist.

You must lisent less to priechers and read more the Bible. The meeting of Jesus with Peter was noit at all as you and your pastor is saying.

The gospels tels us that the first encounter of Jesus and ocurred the next day after Jesus were bapticed by Jhon. That is in the first chapters of John. As you read, it was not that magical encounter. And Peter did live with Jesus for few weeks. They went together to a marriage, and after that went together to Jerusalem for passover.

The second encounter of Jesus and Paul is in Matt and Mark. At this ocation, Jesus is calling Peter to follow him. For some reasons (I can explain why) Peter was not following Jesus at the time. Peter did accept Jesus call. In a first moment he did leave all, boat wife, all. But some how, he went back to the fishing activity.

The third encounter happens in Luke. Peter is still fishing, Jesus ask him the boat to speek to the crowd. After that Jesus renew the call. And Peter accepted following Him.

But Peter never in the Giospel did quit fishing. Probably (probably) was his boat on wich Jesus crossed the lake many times. And for sure (sure) is his boat in wich he is fishing after resurrection (end of John)

I repeat. lisent less to pastors and read more the book.