Jesus Christ Did Pre-Exist, but He also Began. Only the Father Has No Beginning (moved)

[cgaviria]

The Statement of Faith of this site clarifies this issue:

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

If it was declaring one universal church then why is it stating the catholic church AND apostolic church? Its declaring two churches. There is only ONE church. The church of Jesus Christ. Although you may interpret this document's use of the word "catholic" as something else, it is still clear to me that it declares its allegiance to the catholic church, and it declares two churches when there is only ONE church, so I do not trust it. Like I said earlier, debate me with scripture, that is what I trust.

 

[brinny]

It's no different than what you would find in a King James bible, but rather, it uses easier to understand terminology and interlinear text which also makes it easier to see the exact Greek words being used per English word. I think this is key, because as I explained in an earlier post, alot does get lost in translation, and often times we must research the original words to try to find the original meanings. Take for example the word "forever" in most translations of the bible. That is actually a mistranslation. The word should be, into the "eon" (or variations of eons). So in the book of Revelation, you have translations of "forever and ever". How can you add ever to something thats already forever? Makes no sense. The real translation should have been eons and eons, (or a variant of that, as there are eon of eons, etc). God has constrained things he has created into certain time limits that are lengthy time frames, eons. So again, my point being, you have to go to the original words to try to get the original meanings.

Great. What does the version you are referring to state about the nature of God?

When forever is being referred to, at least in my understanding, it means "eternally", and i'm thinking when "forever and ever" is used, it is for added emphasis on the "eternity" of whatever is being referred to, as if to give us pause to consider exactly what that means. There are other words for emphasis used as well, such as "Lo!" "Behold" "Woe"......The same with the repeating of certain words. It is always for emphasis, so that the seriousness of its intention is grasped.

 

[Wgw]

If it was declaring one universal church then why is it stating the catholic church AND apostolic church? Its declaring two churches. There is only ONE church. The church of Jesus Christ. Although you may interpret this document's use of the word "catholic" as something else, it is still clear to me that it declares its allegiance to the catholic church, and it declares two churches when there is only ONE church, so I do not trust it. Like I said earlier, debate me with scripture, that is what I trust.

I would be happy to debate this with you in Controversial Theology.

 

[cgaviria]

I would be happy to debate this with you in Controversial Theology.

I already told you I dont trust the Nicene Creed. Debate done. lol.

 

[brinny]

....just wondering....if Jesus Christ was "created", does that mean that He is not divine?

 

[cgaviria]

Great. What does the version you are referring to state about the nature of God?

When forever is being referred to, at least in my understanding, it means "eternally", and i'm thinking when "forever and ever" is used, it is for added emphasis on the "eternity" of whatever is being referred to, as if to give us pause to consider exactly what that means. There are other words for emphasis used as well, such as "Lo!" "Behold" "Woe"......The same with the repeating of certain words. It is always for emphasis, so that the seriousness of its intention is grasped.

You would think "ever" in "forever and ever" adds emphasis, but that is not the case. The same word eon is used in other passages in the scripture where its time limitation was obvious otherwise the context it was used in didn't make sense. Thats a whole different topic though and I would prefer we open a new thread to discuss that. Lets stick to the topic on this thread.

Back to your question about the nature of God. I believe the nature of the father to be expressed FULLY in his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Also, the Father chooses, and pre-destines. Not one thing happens without him willing it to happen.

 

[Wgw]

....just wondering....if Jesus Christ was "created", does that mean that He is not divine?

Arius suggested that Jesus Christ was divine according to honour but not essence IIRC. I suppose the answer to this really depends on how one defines the word "divine." However the Nicene position of Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Assyrians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists and most other Protestants is essentially that Jesus Christ is consubstantial with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, uncreated (begotten, not made; begotten of the Father before all worlds).

I already told you I dont trust the Nicene Creed. Debate done. lol.

The General Theology forum is "for Nicene Christians." However, we can discuss your assertion regarding the divinity of the Lord in Controversial Theology.

 

[brinny]

You would think "ever" in "forever and ever" adds emphasis, but that is not the case. The same word eon is used in other passages in the scripture where its time limitation was obvious otherwise the context it was used in didn't make sense. Thats a whole different topic though and I would prefer we open a new thread to discuss that. Lets stick to the topic on this thread.

Back to your question about the nature of God. I believe the nature of the father to be expressed FULLY in his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Also, the Father chooses, and pre-destines. Not one thing happens without him willing it to happen.

Just wondering...

is "eon" = "eternity"?

Re: the living God's character, what are some crucial points about His character that HE emphasizes to us?

 

[brinny]

Arius suggested that Jesus Christ was divine according to honour but not essence IIRC. I suppose the answer to this really depends on how one defines the word "divine." However the Nicene position of Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Assyrians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists and most other Protestants is essentially that Jesus Christ is consubstantial with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, uncreated (begotten, not made; begotten of the Father before all worlds).



The General Theology forum is "for Nicene Christians." However, we can discuss your assertion regarding the divinity of the Lord in Controversial Theology.

Thank you. I was also wondering about the OP's response to the same question.

 

[cgaviria]

....just wondering....if Jesus Christ was "created", does that mean that He is not divine?

Just because he is created doesn't mean he is not divine. When God begat his son, or rather, created him directly, he choose to rest his fullness in him, and through him create everything that is in the world. Hence we have this scripture,

For in him dwells all the fullness of the deity bodily. (Colossians 2:9 [ABP])

 

[brinny]

Just because he is created doesn't mean he is not divine. When God begat his son, or rather, created him directly, he choose to rest his fullness in him, and through him create everything that is in the world. Hence we have this scripture,

For in him dwells all the fullness of the deity bodily. (Colossians 2:9 [ABP])

How is it possible to be divine if one is "created"?

Is Jesus Christ to be "worshiped"?

 

[Wgw]

If it was declaring one universal church then why is it stating the catholic church AND apostolic church? Its declaring two churches. There is only ONE church. The church of Jesus Christ. Although you may interpret this document's use of the word "catholic" as something else, it is still clear to me that it declares its allegiance to the catholic church, and it declares two churches when there is only ONE church, so I do not trust it. Like I said earlier, debate me with scripture, that is what I trust.

On this subject I feel it must be clarified that when the creed says "One holy catholic and apostolic church," it is fairly obvious it is talking about one Church; which is variously interpreted according to different ecclesiologies by different members of the site; Nicene members would of neccessity however agree, from the text, that it speaks of only one church, and not two. This church posesses the attributes of holiness, catholicoty (universality) and apostolicity.

 

[cgaviria]

Arius suggested that Jesus Christ was divine according to honour but not essence IIRC. I suppose the answer to this really depends on how one defines the word "divine." However the Nicene position of Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Assyrians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists and most other Protestants is essentially that Jesus Christ is consubstantial with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, uncreated (begotten, not made; begotten of the Father before all worlds).



The General Theology forum is "for Nicene Christians." However, we can discuss your assertion regarding the divinity of the Lord in Controversial Theology.

Can't we just discuss it here?

Arius suggested that Jesus Christ was divine according to honour but not essence IIRC. I suppose the answer to this really depends on how one defines the word "divine." However the Nicene position of Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Assyrians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists and most other Protestants is essentially that Jesus Christ is consubstantial with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, uncreated (begotten, not made; begotten of the Father before all worlds).



The General Theology forum is "for Nicene Christians." However, we can discuss your assertion regarding the divinity of the Lord in Controversial Theology.

I would rather we discuss it here because its already here, although when I originally posted this threat I wasn't aware that the General Theology post I was making was also for Nicene General Theology.

 

[brinny]

Can't we just discuss it here?


I would rather we discuss it here because its already here, although when I originally posted this threat I wasn't aware that the General Theology post I was making was also for Nicene General Theology.

LOL! I'm sure this is a typo, yes?

when I originally posted this threat

 

[Wgw]

Can't we just discuss it here?


I would rather we discuss it here because its already here, although when I originally posted this threat I wasn't aware that the General Theology post I was making was also for Nicene General Theology.

If you ask the mods, I am sure they will move this thread to Controversial Theology. General Theology is not the place, according to the site rules, for this sort of discussion.

 

[cgaviria]

How is it possible to be divine if one is "created"?

Is Jesus Christ to be "worshiped"?

It's possible because the Father does whatever he pleases and has chosen to put his fullness into being he has made. Divinity is not just limited to the Father, it is imparted to whomever he wishes to impart. Jesus Christ is the perfect image of the Father.

 

[cgaviria]

LOL! I'm sure this is a typo, yes?

Yes I wasn't trying to threaten anybody

 

[cgaviria]

If you ask the mods, I am sure they will move this thread to Controversial Theology. General Theology is not the place, according to the site rules, for this sort of discussion.

Well I suppose rules are rules. If they choose to do it, then so be it. But for now, lets continue discussing here, shall we not?

 

[brinny]

It's possible because the Father does whatever he pleases and has chosen to put his fullness into being he has made. Divinity is not just limited to the Father, it is imparted to whomever he wishes to impart. Jesus Christ is the perfect image of the Father.

If Jesus Christ is "created", He is not God, and to worship Him would be worshiping a created being and not worshiping the living God, would it not?

 

[cgaviria]

How is it possible to be divine if one is "created"?

Is Jesus Christ to be "worshiped"?

And yes, Jesus Christ is to be worshiped because worshiping him is worshiping the Father.