Jesus as Michael

LoveofTruth · Dec 25, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
I have had discussions on this forum concerning the Biblical evidence that Jesus is also Michael the Arch Angel. Some have contended with me on this stating that Jesus is not a created "angel". I would wholeheartedly agree but they seem to miss the verses in the Bible that clearly do show that Jesus is referred to as an angel (messenger) in the Bible.... lets look at some.

The word aggelos (G32)is used in the NT to refer to messengers from God... consider the following.

Act 7:30
And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel G32 of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

Was it not Christ in that burning bush? If it had been just a created angel then the place where Moses was standing would not have been Holy ground.

Act 7:38
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel G32 which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Again we see that Jesus was referred to as an angel that appeared to Moses on Sinai.

Rev 8:3-4
And another angel G32 came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's G32 hand.

We know that Jesus is our High Priest that is ministering before the throne of God in our behalf and not the work of a created being.

Rev 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel G32 come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

The attributes here described are only possessed by Christ... it was Jesus that was leading the church in the wilderness by a pillar of cloud by day and pillars of fire by night. The rainbow is only connected with the throne of God and not any created being. And it is only Jesus that is described in scripture as having the face as it were the sun. Matthew 17:2

If you deny the Son you have not the father

The Son is before all things and by Him all things consist. He created all things so he is not a created being.

"13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created,[by the Son] that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him [created by the Son], and for him: 17 And he is before all things [the Son is before all things], and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."(Colossians 1:13-18 KJV)

and The angels are not the only begotten Son of God in these verses.

" For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."(Hebrews 1:5,6 KJV)

We are not to worship
anyels. Only God is to be worshipped.

"16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."(Hebrews 2:16 KJV)

Colossians 2:18
"Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,"

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 25, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
If you deny the Son you have not the father

The Son is before all things and by Him all things consist. He created all things so he is not a created being.

Could you please show where in my post I denied that Jesus was the Son of God? Was it when I said "Some have contended with me on this stating that Jesus is not a created "angel". I would wholeheartedly agree"?

Or was it "We know that Jesus is our High Priest that is ministering before the throne of God in our behalf and not the work of a created being."?

Your handle on here may be LoveofTruth but you are in danger of bearing false witness... be careful brother of spreading malicious lies of something that wasn't said, or even implied. Remember, God sees and considers all.

LoveofTruth · Dec 25, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
Could you please show where in my post I denied that Jesus was the Son of God? Was it when I said "Some have contended with me on this stating that Jesus is not a created "angel". I would wholeheartedly agree"?

Or was it "We know that Jesus is our High Priest that is ministering before the throne of God in our behalf and not the work of a created being."?

Your handle on here may be LoveofTruth but you are in danger of bearing false witness... be careful brother of spreading malicious lies of something that wasn't said, or even implied. Remember, God sees and considers all.

I simply spoke of a verse about denying the Son of God. I did not say you did that. You are the one who may be bearing false witness.

So i ask you

1. Do you believe Jesus is Michael the archangel? Yes or no.

2 Is Jesus an angel to you? Yes or no

3. Is Jesus God manifest in the flesh. ? Yes or no?

4. Is Jesus the second person in the Tri Unity of God? Yes or no

5. Did the Son of God exist as God with the father and the Holy Ghost from eternity and have no beginning? Yes or no

6. Is the Son of God Jesus physical body, or is the Son of God the spiritual aspect of His being God? Yes or no

7. Is Jesus Christ in you? yes or no. ( I ask it just like that Is Jesus Christ in you.

8. Do you have both the father and the Son in you? Yes or no

9. Did God call the Son God? yes or no?

10. Is the Son of God a created being? yes or no

we will find out some more things very easily if you can answer these questions. Hopefully you will have sound doctrine. But so far you have some issues with certain erroneous doctrines.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 25, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
I simply spoke of a verse about denying the Son of God. I did not say you did that.

Dude! You quoted my post of comparing Michael to Jesus and you said "If you deny the Son you have not the father" and you expect anyone to believe you when you say you weren't referring to me? Seems you have bad case of the backpeddles. Bearing false witness against an accusation of bearing false witness can't be good.

Again I ask you to refute what I said in that article, point by point... go on, rip it to sheds with scripture.

You are the one who may be bearing false witness.

Yeah turn the defense to an offense... classic.

My position has been well stated on these forums on this subject... you feeble attempt to try and bring me too contempt with questions I have already answered is humorous. Chew on these answers and report back with your judgement...

So i ask you

1. Do you believe Jesus is Michael the archangel? Yes or no.

2 Is Jesus an angel (messenger) to you? Yes or no Angel of the Lord, Captain of the Lords host, Archangel, your choice

3. Is Jesus God manifest in the flesh. ? Yes or no?

4. Is Jesus the second person in the Godhead? Yes or no

5. Did the Son of God exist as God with the father and the Holy Ghost from eternity and have no beginning? Yes or no He was begotten of the Father

6. Is the Son of God Jesus physical body, or is the Son of God the spiritual aspect of His being God? Yes or no You asked a double question with two different answers Trickster

7. Is Jesus Christ in you? yes or no. ( I ask it just like that Is Jesus Christ in you. Yeah, got it the first time you said it...

8. Do you have both the father and the Son in you? Yes or no We are to be one in them

9. Did God call the Son God? yes or no? Never denied Jesus wasn't fully God and fully man and fully the Angel in the Burning Bush and fully the Lamb...

10. Is the Son of God a created being? yes or no That's just stupid... who believes that in Christianity?

we will find out some more things very easily if you can answer these questions. Hopefully you will have sound doctrine. But so far you have some issues with certain erroneous doctrines.

Judge my faith and get back to me.... thanx.

GoldenKingGaze · Dec 25, 2017

The Bible does not give instance of a self existent angel. Daniel gives us an account of two of the seven princes. Tobit gives us Raphael, a book from the 5th century BC. So Michael, Gabriel and Raphael. Lucifer was called the anointed Cherub. So he was great angel or an archangel, Michael finds it difficult to defeat him.

In John chapter 2 Jesus says He will raise Himself up from the dead. And Jesus fulfills Gen 3:15, He shall crush your head and you shall bruise His heal. And Jesus said He will only give Israel the sign of Jonah, in it's chapter 2, we have the passage of Jonah in the whale.

When Jesus died, people who had shortly before died, came back to life. Death, powerful spirits left them for Jesus, and engaged Jesus. Jesus was up against Lucifer, the King of Hell, all of the spirits of death, every unclean spirit, every dark angel, sought Jesus and to take His power, the Son of the Father, the owner of the vineyard, from the parable of the tenants in the Vineyard. Jesus overcame them. I do not know how long it took. He left Hell with the power of the Father and the Spirit as well as His own, but taking the keys to death and Hell. And in Revelation the name, bright morning star belongs now to Jesus.

Michael could not engage such a vast number of powerful spirits and win.

Michael is only in one place at a time, but the Christ is in always in the heart of true Christians, all over the world, hundreds of millions, and His presence fills the universe. No where in the Bible do Jews or Christians receive an angel into their hearts.

LoveofTruth · Dec 25, 2017

GoldenKingGaze said:
Michael is only in one place at a time, but the Christ is in always in the heart of true Christians, all over the world, hundreds of millions, and His presence fills the universe. No where in the Bible do Jews or Christians receive an angel into their hearts.

This is a very good point you bring out!

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 27, 2017

GoldenKingGaze said:
The Bible does not give instance of a self existent angel.

Who was the angel of the Lord in the burning bush?

GoldenKingGaze · Dec 27, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
Who was the angel of the Lord in the burning bush?

The angel in the burning bush was a creation, and inside was a great infilling of the Holy Spirit who sometimes manifests as fire. He appeared to be a fire. The Angel of the Lord also is full of the Spirit, like the Earth and the angel's spirit, the atmosphere, a thin veil. A very powerful angel indeed. Not seen again after the OT.

The angels are creations, like flames of fire. They are Spirit filled and sometimes anointed for special purposes, some more important than others. We will be like them. Angels of light and full of the light of God. Full of love as well, they eat the bread of life and drink living water...

SBC · Dec 27, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
I have had discussions on this forum concerning the Biblical evidence that Jesus is also Michael the Arch Angel. Some have contended with me on this stating that Jesus is not a created "angel". I would wholeheartedly agree but they seem to miss the verses in the Bible that clearly do show that Jesus is referred to as an angel (messenger) in the Bible.... lets look at some.

The word aggelos (G32)is used in the NT to refer to messengers from God... consider the following.

Act 7:30
And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel G32 of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

Was it not Christ in that burning bush? If it had been just a created angel then the place where Moses was standing would not have been Holy ground.

Act 7:38
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel G32 which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Again we see that Jesus was referred to as an angel that appeared to Moses on Sinai.

Rev 8:3-4
And another angel G32 came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's G32 hand.

We know that Jesus is our High Priest that is ministering before the throne of God in our behalf and not the work of a created being.

Rev 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel G32 come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

The attributes here described are only possessed by Christ... it was Jesus that was leading the church in the wilderness by a pillar of cloud by day and pillars of fire by night. The rainbow is only connected with the throne of God and not any created being. And it is only Jesus that is described in scripture as having the face as it were the sun. Matthew 17:2

The Word of God, has Appeared to Mankind in many FORMS that an earthly man could relate to.

The Word of God has several Names and Descriptions By which He is revealed and called.

The Word of God is never Called by the Name Michael.

The Word of God neither is ever Called by the Name Satan.

Yet Scripture reveals both Michael and Satan were GIVEN great powers ....
As well Scripture reveals CHRIST IS THE POWER OF GOD.

Attempting to MAKE Christ Jesus Michael, is to say, Christ is EQUAL in POWER to the ones, HE GIVES POWER. He isn't. CHRIST IS the POWER that reigns SUPREME over ALL Powers, Including the Power He GIVES to others.

God Bless,
SBC

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 27, 2017

GoldenKingGaze said:
The angel in the burning bush was a creation, and inside was a great infilling of the Holy Spirit who sometimes manifests as fire. He appeared to be a fire. The Angel of the Lord also is full of the Spirit, like the Earth and the angel's spirit, the atmosphere, a thin veil. A very powerful angel indeed. Not seen again after the OT.

The angels are creations, like flames of fire. They are Spirit filled and sometimes anointed for special purposes, some more important than others. We will be like them. Angels of light and full of the light of God. Full of love as well, they eat the bread of life and drink living water...

You need to prayerfully rethink your position... the angel of the Lord in the burning bush was the I AM... the pre-incarnate Christ. Also, notice in that passage that Moses was commanded to remove his sandals for it was hallowed ground.. no created angel can make anything Holy.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 27, 2017

SBC said:
The Word of God, has Appeared to Mankind in many FORMS that an earthly man could relate to.

The Word of God has several Names and Descriptions By which He is revealed and called.

The Word of God is never Called by the Name Michael.

The Word of God neither is ever Called by the Name Satan.

Yet Scripture reveals both Michael and Satan were GIVEN great powers ....
As well Scripture reveals CHRIST IS THE POWER OF GOD.

Attempting to MAKE Christ Jesus Michael, is to say, Christ is EQUAL in POWER to the ones, HE GIVES POWER. He isn't. CHRIST IS the POWER that reigns SUPREME over ALL Powers, Including the Power He GIVES to others.

God Bless,
SBC

You fail to show why Michael is not the pre-incarnate Christ when I have presented ample evidence that He is... just because you deny it doesn't make it so.

As you say, the I AM has many names, captain of the Lords host is one... Joshua 5:14,15
Archangel is the same as the captain of His host... both denote the head of the angels, which Christ is.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 27, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
You are the one who may be bearing false witness.

I thought you didn't subscribe to the Law being binding upon NT Christians? Why is bearing false witness wrong? maybe because it is part of the Decalogue that says it's wrong....

LoveofTruth · Dec 27, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
I thought you didn't subscribe to the Law being binding upon NT Christians? Why is bearing false witness wrong? maybe because it is part of the Decalogue that says it's wrong....

because love works no ill to his neighbour therefore love is the fulfilling of the law

the law is not of faith

Paul said that he through the law was dead to the law

thinned of the commandment is charity

the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death

etc etc

LoveofTruth · Dec 27, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
Who was the angel of the Lord in the burning bush?

who are the prophets OF the Lord? are they the Lord, or is a believer is OF the Lord are they the Lord. sons OF God, Children OF God etc.

So when we hear the angel of the Lord. This was a specific angel that did the work of the Lord at that time.All angels who abide in truth are OF God.

An angel is simply an angel or messenger of God. God can speak through a man or angel or however he wants. But that doesn't make the man or the angel God.

we read that all the angels who did not rebel are OF the Lord

"And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him."(Genesis 32:1 KJV)

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." (Hebrews 1:6 KJV) And only God is to be worshiped not angels. If Jesus was an angel then they should never have worshipped him as they did in scripture. But he is not an angel as scripture shows (Hebrews 1:5, 2:16 KJV)

" And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it."(Genesis 22:12 KJV)

"Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:"(Luke 12:8 KJV)

and if God speaks through a man in the first person as he did many times through prophets, do the people looking on suppose that he is God, because he says "I am the Lord thy God..."? NO

SBC · Dec 27, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
You fail to show why Michael is not the pre-incarnate Christ when I have presented ample evidence that He is... just because you deny it doesn't make it so.

As you say, the I AM has many names, captain of the Lords host is one... Joshua 5:14,15
Archangel is the same as the captain of His host... both denote the head of the angels, which Christ is.

Heb: 1 reveals clearly; Angels DO NOT COME FORTH OUT FROM GOD. They are created beings called "sons of God".

ONLY the Word of God comes forth OUT From God, and is called; thee ONLY begotten Son of God.

Gods WORD has Came forth out of Gods MOUTH and APPEARED
In the "LIKENESS" as an Angel.
In the "LIKENESS" as an Earthly Man.
In the "LIKENESS" of a Dove.
In the "LIKENESS" as a Burning Bush.
Etc.

God does NOT Worship Himself.
All the Heavenly Angels Worship God, in HIS FULLNESS; His Spirit, His Soul, His Word...

Jesus IS the Word of God, thee ONLY Begotton Son of God, thee ONLY to come forth out From God.
John 16:27

Angels. Did NOT come forth out from God.
Angels, were created BY the Word of God speaking them into Existance.

You showing similarities, does not SHOW, Angels came forth out from God,
Does not show, Angels were Worshiped.
Scripture DOES SHOW, Jesus is the Word of God, did come forth out from God and is Worshiped.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC · Dec 27, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
Who was the angel of the Lord in the burning bush?

The Angel OF the Lord, is always a reference TO the Word of God, when He APPEARS in the LIKENESS AS an Angel, whom some men called an Angel, and some men called a man.

Thus from what men SAW and described, we have an indication that Angels and Mankind, can have a similar appearance.

God Bless,
SBC

GoldenKingGaze · Dec 27, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
You need to prayerfully rethink your position... the angel of the Lord in the burning bush was the I AM... the pre-incarnate Christ. Also, notice in that passage that Moses was commanded to remove his sandals for it was hallowed ground.. no created angel can make anything Holy.

Of course a holy angel at God's command with preparation can make ground holy. The I AM was in the angel and spoke through him.
Holy angels can prophesy perfectly, and perfectly take prayers to God. Angels are full of the Holy Spirit.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 27, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
because love works no ill to his neighbour therefore love is the fulfilling of the law

the law is not of faith

Paul said that he through the law was dead to the law

thinned of the commandment is charity

the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death

etc etc

So why were you placing on me the yoke of bearing false witness? That's the law of death, remember?

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 27, 2017

SBC said:
Heb: 1 reveals clearly; Angels DO NOT COME FORTH OUT FROM GOD. They are created beings called "sons of God".

ONLY the Word of God comes forth OUT From God, and is called; thee ONLY begotten Son of God.

Gods WORD has Came forth out of Gods MOUTH and APPEARED
In the "LIKENESS" as an Angel.
In the "LIKENESS" as an Earthly Man.
In the "LIKENESS" of a Dove.
In the "LIKENESS" as a Burning Bush.
Etc.

God does NOT Worship Himself.
All the Heavenly Angels Worship God, in HIS FULLNESS; His Spirit, His Soul, His Word...

Jesus IS the Word of God, thee ONLY Begotton Son of God, thee ONLY to come forth out From God.
John 16:27

Angels. Did NOT come forth out from God.
Angels, were created BY the Word of God speaking them into Existance.

You showing similarities, does not SHOW, Angels came forth out from God,
Does not show, Angels were Worshiped.
Scripture DOES SHOW, Jesus is the Word of God, did come forth out from God and is Worshiped.

God Bless,
SBC

Lol... never said created angels were God... man your comprehension skills are a bit rusty. Here's a clue... the word translated angel can mean a messenger. Jesus was certainly a messenger sent from the Father... would you disagree with that? The angel of the Lord in the burning bush was also the I AM. I know this sends you head for a loop but it's plainly revealed in scripture.

Anywho... this has been fun but seeing as how this issue is non salvational, I'll take my leave.

LoveofTruth · Dec 27, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
So why were you placing on me the yoke of bearing false witness? That's the law of death, remember?

no I walk in the law of the Spirit as all true believers do. If a man does not walk in the law of the Spirit then they are in bondage to the law of sin and death and still under the law and a debtor to do the whole law.

Read Galatians 3-5 and Romans 7 etc etc

Jesus as Michael

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