Jesus' ape-like ancesters.

[GodSaves]

Well that is an odd thing to say Vance. That if physical death came in with the fall that it would invalidate Christ's work.... Maybe you are trying to make it either physical or spiritual instead of both coming in with the fall.

Since Karl made his comment above I would like to ask: Who here thinks they would not have sinned if they were a literally Adam? I firmly believe that no matter who was put in that situation - except God of course - would have sinned. To think that one of us could have actually not sinned is quite a proud remark. God knows that if anyone of us was in the same position we would have done the same. I am not sure why someone would say we are being punished right now, because we live in a sinful state. I am not being punished, I am living in God's light and that for me is not punishment.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I even showed how the Fall could NOT have brought physical death, since that would actually invalidate Jesus' work here on earth!

I haven't heard this line of reasoning before. Could you link to the thread where this is discussed?

 

[GodSaves]

I believe Vance is trying to discuss physical death as the death at the fall and not spiritual death. YEC's believe it was both. In the past Vance has tried to argue that YEC's only believe it was physical death and not spiritual death which is wrong.

Man brought both deaths into the world through sin. We can see that man was made to live forever because of the length of life. People at the time lived 900 some years and it had been declining ever since.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I believe Vance is trying to discuss physical death as the death at the fall and not spiritual death. YEC's believe it was both. In the past Vance has tried to argue that YEC's only believe it was physical death and not spiritual death which is wrong.

Man brought both deaths into the world through sin. We can see that man was made to live forever because of the length of life. People at the time lived 900 some years and it had been declining ever since.

I understand that part.

What I haven't heard is how the fall being physical death would invalidate Christ's work.

FYI, I am with Vance that the death mentioned in the fall is not physical.

 

[GodSaves]

No worries, I can tell you are with Vance. Also, there is no real explanation for this belief you share with him. Then again maybe you can explain why Christ said He would defeat death. Why death is the last enemy that will be thrown into the lake of fire. Death is clearly the enemy of God, and the tool of Satan. The Lake of fire is where the enemies of God go, the second death, the spiritual death.

 

[herev]

I had a chat with a fellow at work today. He has been asking questions for a while and is very interested in discussing Christianity. He said one the major difficulties he faces is understanding how a good God would allows all the suffering we see in the world today.

As a Christian who believes the plain teaching of Genesis, ie the historical account. I was able to speak of the fall, how man disobeyed God, sin entered the world, and death through sin. I reassured Him that no, God's creation was very good. It was free from sin, sickness, suffering, and death, and that those things resulted from man choosing to disobey God's clear and simple instructions.

I noticed reading the AIG site tonight, that they have a good link that discusses this issue in detail.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/death_suffering.asp

One of the horrific implications of TE and progressive theology is to portray God as the author of suffering, sickness, and death. That is a lie from satan. It is easy to understand why an enquirer would question the goodness of a god responsible for such a creation. This teaching undermines the integrity of God's character, and creates a stumbling block for those seeking God.

Do we need another reason to reject origins theology that claim suffering and death existed before the fall.

I guess I that settles it. I was wrong!

I believe that with this understanding, Micaiah and I will agree on nearly everything. Blessed be the peacemakers!

 

[Vance]

I believe that the Fall could only have brought spiritual death, and not physical death.

At the time of the Fall, something happened to Mankind, we lost something and suffered either spiritual death (loss of communion with God due to our sin) or physical death, or both. Jesus was sent to redeem and REVERSE that loss. Now, it could NOT have been physical death since even those who accept Christ's redemption still experience physical death. If it was physical death which what was incurred at the Fall, then Jesus' action has been ineffective to overcome that. We know that Christ can not have been ineffective in His redemptive work, so it must have been only spiritual death which has been overcome. Which makes perfect sense since this is exactly what accepting Christ's redemption does, it puts us back into communion with God, so that we are no longer "spiritually" dead.

Moreover, we know that even those who do NOT accept that salvation will experience eternal physical life, just not with God, meaning they will remain in spiritual death.

Moreover, this analysis also conforms with the account of the Fall itself, which states that "on the day" that they partake of the fruit, they would suffer whatever "death" is being referred to. Since we know that they did not die physically "on that day", it is MUCH more likely that it is referring to spiritual death only.

Moreover, this interpretation also happens to match up with the evidence from God's Creation itself, which shows LOTS of physical death before the Fall.

 

[GodSaves]

THere is a physical resurrection. Paul taught this vigorously. There would be no need for a physical resurrection of our actual bodies if they were not meant to live anyways.

To say that even those who are against God will receive physical ressurection as an arguement against physical death has no merit. You or I do not know the mind of God. We do not know if after the judgement that those who are thrown into the lake of fire, their bodies are burned. We don't know, so this is not a very good arguement because you are assuming to know how God will handle this when it is not written for us to know.

You have not addressed why God defeats death as written many times in the Bible. This death that is defeated is thrown into the lake of fire. This is physical death. There would be no need to destroy it if it was not an enemy - as written in the Bible - of God.

You are also claiming to know God's way of keeping time. God said in that day they will die. It very well could have been in that day of sin they will die. Everyday since that day has been in that day of sin. We are in the day of sin.

You claim we have evidence of life before the fall of man? I would love to see where scientists have put a time table on the fall of man. WHo judged the evidence was before the fall of man? How can one know that this sediment was before the fall and this sediment was after? Are there scientists out there that do this kind of research?

 

[Vance]

Well, we have evidence of life and death before ANY man, so that would mean that we have evidence of life and death before the Fall of Man.

As for the rest, we have done this full analysis more than once before, and I don't have the time or energy to rehash it all over again. I think the points I have raised have never been adequately explained away, so I think that it is a pretty solid position.

 

[Ben_Hur]

We can see that man was made to live forever because of the length of life. People at the time lived 900 some years and it had been declining ever since.

Woa. That simply does not follow. The text doesn't even allude to that reasoning. The text certainly shows long lives. However, it does NOT state that those lives were due to a previous immortality status on the part of Adam. In fact, God purposly shortens the lifespan to 120 years, as if the previous lifespans were intended to be the norm.

 

[GodSaves]

So we have all the evidence to come to that conclusion then? Basically, we have the perspective of God to know this? Remember faith in what is not seen. This isn't just about God but what God says as well.

You are correct the Bible does not state that the life span was declining due to not having eternal life. Do you think sin affects physical life increasingly more the longer we live in sin? Do you think Paul was correct when he said we are increasingly decaying, as well as the earth because of our wallowing in sin?

Your full analysis cannot argue God's Words of defeating death because it is an enemy of God. This death that is the enemy of God, is thrown into the lake of fire. Vance, your stance has never been solid. You talk about me and a slippery slope, well be careful because you are standing on wet ground.

 

[Ben_Hur]

You are correct the Bible does not state that the life span was declining due to not having eternal life. Do you think sin affects physical life increasingly more the longer we live in sin? Do you think Paul was correct when he said we are increasingly decaying, as well as the earth because of our wallowing in sin?

Yes to both questions. How those support Adam being immortal, I don't see.

 

[GodSaves]

Ok. You agreed with the teaching that sin is decaying our bodies and earth. This has been the reason why we don't live as long as those in the Old Testament. You can see the affect sin has on the physical body, decaying it until death. If there was no sin, no decay of the body or earth. Nothing would be increasing us in age, we would be ageless. The life span would not be an issue, we would live regardless of how long we have been alive because there would be nothing that is causing us to decay.

Remember decay happens because of sin, as Paul rightly said. We can see this by just looking at the life span for all those in the Bible. It has been decreasing. If there was no decay, there would be no death. Without sin there would be no one killing. In a world without sin man would live forever. It is sin that causes death through decay. Even scientists have agreed that we slowly start to decay from birth. We call it aging.

 

[Ben_Hur]

Ok. You agreed with the teaching that sin is decaying our bodies and earth. This has been the reason why we don't live as long as those in the Old Testament. You can see the affect sin has on the physical body, decaying it until death. If there was no sin, no decay of the body or earth. Nothing would be increasing us in age, we would be ageless. The life span would not be an issue, we would live regardless of how long we have been alive because there would be nothing that is causing us to decay.

Remember decay happens because of sin, as Paul rightly said. We can see this by just looking at the life span for all those in the Bible. It has been decreasing. If there was no decay, there would be no death. Without sin there would be no one killing. In a world without sin man would live forever. It is sin that causes death through decay. Even scientists have agreed that we slowly start to decay from birth. We call it aging.

This sounds like a bit of a stretch. But I can't actually say it is a stretch because I don't recall the verse regarding decay to which you refer. Could you provide that verse please?

 

[GodSaves]

Sure.


Romans 8
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.
23And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God's sons).
24For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees?

Ecclesiastes 1
2Vapor of vapors and futility of futilities, says the Preacher. Vapor of vapors and futility of futilities! All is vanity (emptiness, falsity, and vainglory).

Jeremiah 12
4How long must the land mourn and the grass and herbs of the whole country wither? Through the wickedness of those who dwell in it, the beasts and the birds are consumed and are swept away [by the drought], because men [mocked] me, saying, He shall not [live to] see our final end.

 

[Ben_Hur]

Sure.


Romans 8
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.
23And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God's sons).
24For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees?

Ecclesiastes 1
2Vapor of vapors and futility of futilities, says the Preacher. Vapor of vapors and futility of futilities! All is vanity (emptiness, falsity, and vainglory).

Jeremiah 12
4How long must the land mourn and the grass and herbs of the whole country wither? Through the wickedness of those who dwell in it, the beasts and the birds are consumed and are swept away [by the drought], because men [mocked] me, saying, He shall not [live to] see our final end.

My translation says this:
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Slavery to corruption: If the creation is a slave to corruption - or decay - that certainly can be considered to be due to our poor stewardship of this earth - or in the case of creatures, poor stewardship of ourselves left without the Spirit.

Pains of Childbirth: Note that childbirth results in a more complexity to the universe than prior to conception. Childbirth is not decay, but the building up of something.

Having the first fruits of the Spirit - pointing out that we have life in the Spirit and groan in that spiritual regard as does the physical groan as in childbirth.

So I do think your above post is a bit of a stretch. I don't think you can take from this passage that the "sin condition" is causing a physical decay of the creation. But it is coming from the sinfulness of man - or maybe the mere fact that we are on the earth, consuming things and burning things up. And, we are here because God put Adam out of Eden, into this place...earth. There is still nothing to say that there was no earthly death before Adam arrived from within Eden.

 

[GodSaves]

So then you believe the earth would decay without sin?

(I used the amplified version. I find that it gives a fuller meaning of the original language.)

 

[TwinCrier]

Is the concensus here among TEs that mankind would face death even if we never sinned?

 

[Vance]

Physical death? Yes. Spiritual death? No.

Consensus? Not sure.

 

[herev]

Physical death? Yes. Spiritual death? No.

Consensus? Not sure.

agreed on all three answers