Jesus and the cross are extremely confusing and we are abandoned

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Most of that made sense. The only question I have is where in the scripture does it say that Jesus would do all that if I was the only person in the world? Yes he did treat people as individuals during his ministry but it still seems to me that the cross was for the sheer number of people who would be saved.

Good question - that is not found in Scripture, and might be misleading. (seems to be a kind of emotional or mental lure as if to convince someone , without actually helping them)

 

[DarkSoul999]

Good question - that is not found in Scripture, and might be misleading. (seems to be a kind of emotional or mental lure as if to convince someone , without actually helping them)

If I can't get a clear answer to this then I'll never be totally sure. Many Christians state that if you are not totally sure of your own salvation then you are damned.

I'm at an impasse...don't know how much longer I can take this until what little remains of my soul is finally crushed.

To answer your previous question: no I don't think God is talking to me. There isn't enough left of my heart for him to speak to. It is mostly ground to dust at this point. Even if he is trying to fix that there is no way that I can possibly confirm it...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If I can't get a clear answer to this then I'll never be totally sure. Many Christians state that if you are not totally sure of your own salvation then you are damned.

Well, a multitude of visitors have found that this forum (no internet place) is a place to get clarity , no, no clear answer, and no way to be totally sure --- those who parlay / seek answers on the internet are probably never going to get the right answer, and end up self-destructing eventually, unless they discover by God's Grace Where to Find the Answers they need and actually everything they need. (in His Word and thru Jesus).
"Many Christians" are wrong "MANY TIMES", so that also is not reliable source.

On the earth, in the world, there are few trustworthy sources. If you seek from YHVH His Way, if you seek YHVH Himself - seek His Presence totally dependent on Him, crying out to Him and not anyone else, if you keep seeking Him, the Creator of ALL LIFE, you will find HIM (NOT man's way(s) ) ...for this is HIS WORD, HIS PROMISE, and no one who puts all their trust in HIM , the CREATOR, is ever disappointed by HIM. Only if they turn away, back to the vomit of earth/ man's ways/ do they suffer more again, and not find what they started to seek. Yet even then, even as Peter was drawn back into Jesus ecclesia (borned again ones, born by the Will of the Father from heaven) after Peter grievously sinned (twice or more),
even so, YHVH is full of mercy and grace just as His Word Says Clearly,
and there in HIM, in JESUS, is HOPE and HELP always, in time of need, every day, for those who trust and rely on HIM and depend on HIM FOR LIFE !

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If I can't get a clear answer to this then I'll never be totally sure. Many Christians state that if you are not totally sure of your own salvation then you are damned.

I'm at an impasse...don't know how much longer I can take this until what little remains of my soul is finally crushed.

To answer your previous question: no I don't think God is talking to me. There isn't enough left of my heart for him to speak to. It is mostly ground to dust at this point. Even if he is trying to fix that there is no way that I can possibly confirm it...

It is sound doctrine to have salvation but not the assurance of it. John Bunyan received Christ and then it took a further eight years before he was assured of it. A person turns to Christ by faith and the instant he turns to Christ he is saved, but it may take time for him to receive the assurance of it. This is standard Reformed Christian teaching. Roman Catholic theology teaches that one cannot be totally assured of salvation in this life, yet most receive Christ as Saviour. Who's to say they are not saved, even though they don't believe they can have assurance of it until they stand before God in the Judgment? It is one thing to have peace with God through receiving Christ, and it can be quite another having the peace of God as the result of the decision.

 

[lee11]

To summarize, Jesus was born as a human baby because he wanted to be born as one then grew up to teach wisdom and perform thousands of life changing miracles far beyond anything we could conceive of today. Then he finished it all off by taking on the combined misery and horror of the world for the salvation of sinners.

Immediately following his resurrection, his apostles dedicated their lives to spreading the message of what happened and what it means. Meanwhile, absolutely everything remained the same. Then they died and basically everything remained as awful as before. Sure there are still people spreading the message just like the apostles but there really isn't anything else going on. We are completely alone in this world and entirely left to our own devices. There are NO MIRACLES and I wouldn't even say that goodness holds much of any power whatsoever on this planet. Just think about how much effort, brilliance, talent, energy, and straight up luck it takes to heal people and rebuild your community. Now think about how incredibly easy it is for evil to get what it wants. Sure your spiritual fruits will earn you brownie points in heaven but you are still a small, insignificant, nothing of a person on this planet. You and I will never accomplish much of anything and God seems to refuse to empower us. He has zero interest in watching us defeat evil. In fact, you can find countless examples of Christians and other righteous people being totally crushed under-heel and the wicked taking total control for the vast majority of a nation's history.

So my question is: why would Jesus come into the world as he did and die as he did and then....completely abandon everyone?! I am not suggesting that he shoot down lightning bolts to blast the wicked I am suggestion that he EMPOWER the believers...but obviously he doesn't feel like doing that. Yes I realize that most of you don't feel alone or weak because you think the Holy Spirit is talking to you. That is wonderful. I feel happy for you. Beyond that there is no concrete evidence that God is even slightly interested in your time on Earth. He might be profoundly interested in where you spend eternity but this life is a completely disgusting waste of time. There is no hope that regular people will ever fight evil and win. In fact you will continuously cower before its might until you are lucky enough to breathe your last. It might seem like the good guys sometimes win but that victory is very very fleeting and the darkness swallows up what little progress they might have made.

I get the impression that most Christians are so focused on spiritual ideas and feelings that they never stop to contemplate just how utterly useless we all are when it comes to making a tangible positive impact on this planet.

Realistically speaking you will barely be able to take care of your own life and your family. Meanwhile, some psycho will gun down or bomb a hundred people effectively annihilating a thousand generations in an instant. Even the smallest mistake in life can have cataclysmic consequences and there is no possible way that you can avoid making them. Life is a joke and there are no miracles. What exactly was the point of Jesus showing up? Is life like some reality TV show where you have to solve the puzzle of faith so you get a reward (heaven) at the end of it? Is our moment to moment existence just a silly game to him?

I find that to be incredibly strange. Why would he suffer the horrors of the cross just to play some silly game with our pathetic souls? This seems purely contradictory as I'm sure you would agree...

Hi

I have quite the opposite experience, that you are identifying as the doom and gloom that you observe and experience in your own personal relationship with Jesus.

i dont believe and follow the teachings of the flesh, the enemy and the world, i observe and try to apply the promises and teachings of our fathers word.

Your feedback reminds me, of when Jesus said a wiseman builds their house on a rock, and when the storms came, the building is able to stand because its foundation is built on the rock and did not fall

Another words Jesus is our foundation and the word of God is the building, and the promises and teachings of the word of God, are the materials that strengthen and reinforce the building.

The storms are the trails and tribulations we face on a daily basis, and our foundation is Jesus who we rely, trust, and depend on, and the word of God gives us understanding to apply these promises and teachings in our lives so we are able to over come all our adversities.

Jesus said if you build your house on the sand, when the storms come and attack the house it will collapse and be destroyed.

Another words if you have any other foundation besides Jesus, your building is compromised and vulnerable, and any challenge test or trail you face on a daily basis will begin to diminish, demolish and eventually destroy that building.

Its similar to the 4 outcomes of the seeds that Jesus said are planted in peoples lives.

If your perception, interactions, and experiences has reached this conclusion, then you sound crushed, conquered, and defeated.

Unfortunately christianity is one of the hardest journeys to obey and follow, we need to take up our cross everyday and submit surrender and humble ourselves before God.

So he can deal with our attitudes, weaknesses, and vulnerabilities etc.

Then we need to live in the word of God, until the word of God lives in us,

The renewal, teachings, and applications of Gods word, is what helps us to transform grow and mature as Christians.

Its not an easy path, but it is the path of the straight and narrow.

I hope you find the peace of mind you deserve.

Peace.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

He stated that the purpose of this life is to determine what happens to us in the next life.

What I tell people.
What's most important is where we end up after life on this earth is over.

I do try to remember to take some joy in the many things that God has made -- for He said they are good.

True, it ain't always easy here and I can easily get into the old poor me's. Not a good place to stay -- we should make the best of each day.

Concentrate on these.
For God said they were good.
Bible -- preachers
Loved ones and family
Friends
Mountains
Animals
Sky -- stars
Trees -- rocks
Ocean -- creatures
Etc etc

M-Bob

 

[DarkSoul999]

It is sound doctrine to have salvation but not the assurance of it. John Bunyan received Christ and then it took a further eight years before he was assured of it. A person turns to Christ by faith and the instant he turns to Christ he is saved, but it may take time for him to receive the assurance of it. This is standard Reformed Christian teaching. Roman Catholic theology teaches that one cannot be totally assured of salvation in this life, yet most receive Christ as Saviour. Who's to say they are not saved, even though they don't believe they can have assurance of it until they stand before God in the Judgment? It is one thing to have peace with God through receiving Christ, and it can be quite another having the peace of God as the result of the decision.

hmm...Interesting. I've never heard someone put it that way. I'll have to reflect on that.

 

[DarkSoul999]

Hi

I have quite the opposite experience, that you are identifying as the doom and gloom that you observe and experience in your own personal relationship with Jesus.

i dont believe and follow the teachings of the flesh, the enemy and the world, i observe and try to apply the promises and teachings of our fathers word.

Your feedback reminds me, of when Jesus said a wiseman builds their house on a rock, and when the storms came, the building is able to stand because its foundation is built on the rock and did not fall

Another words Jesus is our foundation and the word of God is the building, and the promises and teachings of the word of God, are the materials that strengthen and reinforce the building.

The storms are the trails and tribulations we face on a daily basis, and our foundation is Jesus who we rely, trust, and depend on, and the word of God gives us understanding to apply these promises and teachings in our lives so we are able to over come all our adversities.

Jesus said if you build your house on the sand, when the storms come and attack the house it will collapse and be destroyed.

Another words if you have any other foundation besides Jesus, your building is compromised and vulnerable, and any challenge test or trail you face on a daily basis will begin to diminish, demolish and eventually destroy that building.

Its similar to the 4 outcomes of the seeds that Jesus said are planted in peoples lives.

If your perception, interactions, and experiences has reached this conclusion, then you sound crushed, conquered, and defeated.

Unfortunately christianity is one of the hardest journeys to obey and follow, we need to take up our cross everyday and submit surrender and humble ourselves before God.

So he can deal with our attitudes, weaknesses, and vulnerabilities etc.

Then we need to live in the word of God, until the word of God lives in us,

The renewal, teachings, and applications of Gods word, is what helps us to transform grow and mature as Christians.

Its not an easy path, but it is the path of the straight and narrow.

I hope you find the peace of mind you deserve.

Peace.

I just don't understand what this means. Are you saying that God manipulates your environment to take charge of your life? Are you saying that God alters your literal neuron firings so that you think and feel differently?

I don't know what we are even supposed to trust in other than the promise of salvation after this miserable life is over. Not everyone has a purpose in this life. Many don't even survive birth, infancy, etc.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

hmm...Interesting. I've never heard someone put it that way. I'll have to reflect on that.

There is a good book written by the Puritan author, William Bridge. It is called "The Lifting Up of The Downcast". Don't worry about the 17th Century language because he writes clearly and simply, and so it is not as complicated as KJV English. He goes into the type of struggles that Christians have about assurance, and devotes a whole chapter on not being discouraged in the face of having no assurance of salvation. Here is the Amazon link:
https://www.amazon.com/William-Bridge/e/B0034PX2R6
or the Digital Puritan Library:
A Lifting Up For the DowncastWILLIAM BRIDGE | Digital Puritan Press
Here's a free copy which you might have to cut and paste into a Word document to make it more readable:
Full text of "The works of the Rev. William Bridge"

 

[ldonjohn]

DarkSoul, I can identify with your confusion about God, Jesus, hell, believing, etc.
Many years ago when I was a young man I found myself asking many of the same questions you are asking today. I did not understand how Jesus dying on the cross saved anyone from hell. I wasn't even sure if the bible was true or if God was real. I wanted to know the truth of it all, and I wanted to know that when I died I would NOT spend eternity in hell if there was a hell. I realized that the bible just might be true and if it is then I wanted to know how to believe it or how to “solve the puzzle of faith,” as you put it, so that I would not end up in hell.

After several years of asking questions, reading books about God, Jesus, and the bible, and listening to preachers I found myself still as confused as when I started my search for the truth about the matter.

I came to the conclusion that there was NO way anyone could ever know that he/she had done whatever God expected of them so that He, God, would give them eternal life. I thought that I would have to die before I would know where I would spend eternity, and that thought scared the hell out of me.

DarkSoul, I can say today, some 40 years later, that I did find the answer. I did find the truth about God, the Bible, and Jesus. I did find the solution to that “puzzle of faith.” (By the way, I have never heard of it described that way, but I like that and just might use that sometime.)

That puzzle was solved for me in a way that I never expected. It was not solved for me in a dream, not in a vision, not through some man's reasoning, or logic, not through the wisdom of man, etc., etc.

Actually, some other posters have made reference to the method I found to solve the puzzle.

I'm not educated in bible studies, not a minister, not involved in any kind of Christian ministry other than just sharing my Christian “experience” with others.

DarkSoul, God is a spirit, and the spirit of an unbeliever is in a state of darkness; a state of spiritual blindness which means that we cannot understand spiritual matters. In other words we are blind to the truth about God. That is the reason you cannot understand the purpose for God sending Jesus into the world to die on that cross, and the reason you cannot find the kind of faith that God requires of us that will guarantee we have eternal life with Him. That was the reason I struggled for many years trying to understand it all, but could not find any evidence that convinced me that it was real.

But God wants to bring us out of that state of spiritual blindness so we can see & understand the reason He sent Jesus into the world, and He provided a way for that to happen. He has given all the evidence we need, but again our problem is that we can't see that evidence.

You could talk to and ask every Christian in the world about how to solve that “faith puzzle,” and you will probably get some scripture quoted to you which would be pointing you in the right direction. The evidence we need IS found in scripture, but again, we can't see that evidence with out blind spiritual eyes.

I hope you are now asking yourself “how did this guy find the evidence if he was blind and could not see it? That doesn't make sense!” Well, let me explain that.

God wants us to find Him; to find the truth about Him; to find the “faith” we need to “believe” in Him so that He can give us eternal life with Him. He, God, really isn't hiding from us, and we CAN find Him if we will seek for Him as though finding Him means more to us than anything else in life. The place to find the evidence of the truth about God is in the Bible. Please don't turn me off now; please stay with me; I have been where you are and I know right now I'm not making sense to you, because it didn't make sense to me either. But, the faith puzzle does have a solution; I was just like you are now; I thought there was no way to know how to have faith in Jesus, but there is, and I can show you. It won't cost you anything; I'm not trying to sell anything; I just want you to see the same thing I saw. I want you to find the same answer to the “faith puzzle” that I found, and when you find it your eyes will be opened so that you can see the truth about God.

I have suggested to people that they will find the truth about God & Jesus if they would read the Gospel of John because that is the place I found the truth I needed that convinced me to believe in Jesus. Some of them have told me that they have read the Gospel of John, the Book of John, many times, but nothing happened to them; that they did not find anything there that convinced them that any of it was true; that their lives were not changed by reading the Gospel of John in the way my life was changed. Well, maybe the reason those people didn't find anything was that they were not looking for the truth, and/or they were not expecting to find anything there that would change their lives.

Now I'm ready to get to the heart of the matter of how to find the solution to that “faith puzzle.” (Again, I like that) You probably don't want any scriptures quoted, but I must use at least one, so please don't turn me off. In Jeremiah 29:13 God says that anyone can find Him if that person will seek Him with all their heart. He, God is saying that we can find the truth about Him & can know Him if we will seek that truth as though finding it is more important than anything else in our lives. That was what happened to me and I didn't know much about scripture; certainly had never heard of Jeremiah 29:13.

You might be thinking “How can I seek God when I don't know if He is real? How do I know Jesus is real? How do I believe in Jesus if He is real?” Those are the questions I asked.

Well, I have a suggestion. This was what I did. I wasn't sure God was real, wasn't sure the bible was the truth, and didn't understand what “believe in Jesus” meant even if He was real. But, after many years of talking to people, reading books about God/Jesus, listing to preachers, etc. and still thinking I would NEVER know how to find faith in Jesus, one night, when I went to bed, I was confused, afraid, and desperate, so out of a sense of hopelessness I looked up at the ceiling and said the following prayer to a God I wasn't even sure existed, “God, will you show me the truth about believing in Jesus?” I slept better that night than I had slept in a long time. The next day I did something I had never done at home, I found a bible, opened it to the Gospel of John and started reading verse 1. Now, I had read in that book at church when I was a kid, but I really didn't care about God at that time in my life, and it meant nothing to me then. But, this time, God saw that I was desperately seeking to know the truth about Him and that I desperately wanted to “believe” or to find the kind of faith that He required. Again, I wasn't even sure that God existed or that the bible was true, but I was ready to accept whatever I found there that night as I read in the Gospel of John if it convinced me that it was the truth. God saw that I was seeking Him with all my heart and He did exactly what He said He would do in Jeremiah 29:13. God allowed me to see the truth. Remember, God is a spirit and we are spiritually blind, but God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit will give us spiritual light so we can see spiritual truth when we seek God in the right way.(Jeremiah 29:13) AND that is what He did for me as I read the Gospel of John. I began to see & to understand the truth about God, and about who Jesus is and the reason He came into the world. I found the truth there that I thought I could never know. By the time I read through chapter 6 the Holy Spirit had completely convinced me that the bible is the absolute truth, that God is real, and that Jesus will do exactly what He says He will do. John 6:37 was one of the verses that especially spoke to me. God gave me the answer to the “faith puzzle” because He totally convinced me that Jesus did everything He, God, required for me to have eternal life with Him. I found the evidence I was looking for, but that evidence was not what I had expected to find. Actually, I had no idea of what I would find as I began to read in the bible that night; I just wanted to find something that would help me believe God. That evidence was the Holy Spirit; He made it real; He removed the blindness from my spiritually blinded eyes so that I could see God and see truth.

Now, you might be thinking “This guy is nuts. I've heard that Holy Ghost stuff before. That's all a bunch of nonsense. Well, I will admit that I have heard stuff about the Holy Ghost that is not biblical. I've heard stuff about God & about Jesus that is not true. I have learned that sometimes we need to check things others say about God, about the bible, about Jesus, and about Christianity in scripture to see if they are truth, because many times they are not. I don't know how I would have reacted to a story like this 40 years ago when I was struggling to find God; I might have been inclined to brush it off as something that would not happen to me. I just know that the solution to that “faith puzzle” is the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. I hope you will not take my story as one that does not apply to your situation.

If you are still reading, I am asking that you do not give up trying to find your answer to the “faith puzzle.” You can find the answer. You can KNOW God!

I don't know your heart or your mind, but if you are not sure God is real, would you be willing to do the following?

Tell God that you want to know the truth about Him. That you are willing to accept whatever He reveals to you from His Word, and that you are going to search His word for that truth. Ask God to show you how to have faith in Jesus. Then get a good bible translation. you might ask someone about that. Just be careful because I've heard that there are some translations that have changed the truth. I still like the KJV because I was totally ignorant about the bible and the KJV was the bible I was reading when God showed me the very truth I needed to believe. Next, I suggest that you read the Gospel of John expecting to find the truth there as you read it. Also, read Romans. If you don't find anything there that changes your mind about the truth of God & Jesus, then re-read those books. You might also read Galatians and Corinthians; read the entire New Testament. The important thing is that you really want to find the truth; that you really mean business with God about knowing Him. Read & re-read over and over until God's Spirit begins to show you the truth. He will do that for you when He sees that you earnestly seek to know Him. Remember Jeremiah 29:13. If you will do this, God will open your eyes to the truth, and you can know how to have faith, because God will give you the faith you need. That is another scripture by the way in Ephesians.

Well, I sat at my computer for about 2 hours writing this response to your post. I could have been doing other things, but I want to help you find your answer. I hope you don't dismiss my response thinking I'm some sort of religious nut who thinks he knows everything about God. Actually, I used to think Christians were a bunch of hypocrites who thought they were better that the rest of us, then I realized that I was the hypocrite.

Regards,

John

 

[tallulah]

At times I have felt some of the despair you have expressed. I've found that reading scripture serves to be a rorschach test of sorts that reveals more about me and where I am at, spiritually. When I am far from God, all the words and stories appear to be dark to me but when I am doing well, they lift me up and I feel hope. You may not think there is any reason to do it now but I would start/continue to pour out your heart in prayer about all these things if you aren't already. One of the hardest things to do is to have patience when trying to make sense of spiritual things.

In effort to address some of the things you mentioned...
Things aren't as awful now as they were, depending on where you live. If you live in a place where Jesus is pushed out then things will be much worse. Overall, Jesus has lifted humanity to a much higher place. We tend to focus on the bad but without Jesus and the church our culture would probably still approve of and be participating in many of the barbaric acts that some cultures still hang on to. We have Jesus to thank for equality and freedom. You can expect to see humanity's moral bar lifted the more Jesus is put into practice.

Jesus never said this place was going to be a good place and life was going to be easy. Judging by what he said, we should expect to have trouble in this life. Part of that is having to know and see all the horrible things going on that you can't do much about. It makes sense that in Revelation it states "woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you,knowing he has only a short time.” God let satan torture Job to prove a point. In the end he blesses Job but I can't imagine what I would have thought if Job was my friend and I had to witness him suffer like that. I don't think it's crazy to think that God lets satan do horrible things just to prove a point and I think we can be humble enough to say that its God's right to use us in that way. Like Job, he gave you the ability to wrestle with him on these things and to say its not fair. In our history we didn't even give each other that ability. Many have been and are still being put to death for just questioning their leaders.

On the flip side of all that, have you been a part of someone's transformation in Christ? We can be soldiers in that war and see, here and now, a lot of good that is done as a result. Without that, I would be (and have been) given to hopelessness. Most of us are in need encouragement from our brothers and sisters and once a week sometimes isn't enough. I would suggest doing what you can to be a part of that process in someone's life who is making the transition from being lost to saved. There is nothing like it and the joy in that consumes you. Being that you seem to feel so much suffering from the unjust things going on in this world, I think you would be more inclined to benefit from all the things in being active in the fight to save people from what could lead a person to all the horrible things that go on every day. The only thing I know of that can do that is Jesus. The empowerment that you have is the word at your fingertips and in you and your life modeling Jesus. We all have people around us that we can influence. When I see something like you mentioned about a psycho gunning down people, I think many things like no one got to him and loved him like Jesus would love him and then failed him in that way, he was used by satan and he repeatedly rejected Jesus and spiraled out of control into darkness. Who knows if you can be the one person in someone's life who reached out to them and snatched them from the darkness that would otherwise consume them. I believe one day we will get to see the results of everything we did or didn't do. I am open to the idea of parallel universes for just that purpose alone, that every possible outcome was played out somewhere so we can fully know the effect we and Jesus had on this earth.

Miracles were meant to glorify God to give Jesus street cred because the people needed a dog and pony show to believe. We have his word and that means so much more than miracles, in my opinion.

As far as the cross... how it makes sense to me is that Jesus died on the cross because man demanded it. God never wanted sacrifice. People were killing babies and virgins as sacrifices and God says that thought never even entered his mind. He gave animal sacrifice so people would stop killing each other. I don't think Jesus coming along at that time when animal sacrifice was put into play would have worked because they weren't ready to hear him. It would be like going up to Attila the Hun and asking him if he could find some love in his heart for his fellow man. God met man at his level while encouraging a higher level. You can see that in the kind of laws in the OT. They are mostly useless to us now. You can see that in the way he granted divorce because their hearts were hard but then Jesus came and said it was a concession for that time. Jesus being put to death was a reflection of what man wanted and God gave it and it showed man what he was because of it and used it for the good in saving those who would believe in truth and love and all the things Jesus was. We needed a savior that was everything that God wanted in man to live up to. It didn't happen overnight but you see throughout history how things are changed for the better as a result of Jesus' words being put into practice. God put the power in man's hands to change the world by accepting Jesus, expressing faith through love. Jesus found forgiveness in his heart for man while being spit on and insulted while dying for them, saying "father forgive them for they don't know what they are doing". His life divinely inspired 1 Corinthians 13 - the greatest definition of love...almost impossible to live up to but worth trying.

 

[theanticrash]

To summarize, Jesus was born as a human baby because he wanted to be born as one then grew up to teach wisdom and perform thousands of life changing miracles far beyond anything we could conceive of today. Then he finished it all off by taking on the combined misery and horror of the world for the salvation of sinners.

Immediately following his resurrection, his apostles dedicated their lives to spreading the message of what happened and what it means. Meanwhile, absolutely everything remained the same. Then they died and basically everything remained as awful as before. Sure there are still people spreading the message just like the apostles but there really isn't anything else going on. We are completely alone in this world and entirely left to our own devices. There are NO MIRACLES and I wouldn't even say that goodness holds much of any power whatsoever on this planet. Just think about how much effort, brilliance, talent, energy, and straight up luck it takes to heal people and rebuild your community. Now think about how incredibly easy it is for evil to get what it wants. Sure your spiritual fruits will earn you brownie points in heaven but you are still a small, insignificant, nothing of a person on this planet. You and I will never accomplish much of anything and God seems to refuse to empower us. He has zero interest in watching us defeat evil. In fact, you can find countless examples of Christians and other righteous people being totally crushed under-heel and the wicked taking total control for the vast majority of a nation's history.

So my question is: why would Jesus come into the world as he did and die as he did and then....completely abandon everyone?! I am not suggesting that he shoot down lightning bolts to blast the wicked I am suggestion that he EMPOWER the believers...but obviously he doesn't feel like doing that. Yes I realize that most of you don't feel alone or weak because you think the Holy Spirit is talking to you. That is wonderful. I feel happy for you. Beyond that there is no concrete evidence that God is even slightly interested in your time on Earth. He might be profoundly interested in where you spend eternity but this life is a completely disgusting waste of time. There is no hope that regular people will ever fight evil and win. In fact you will continuously cower before its might until you are lucky enough to breathe your last. It might seem like the good guys sometimes win but that victory is very very fleeting and the darkness swallows up what little progress they might have made.

I get the impression that most Christians are so focused on spiritual ideas and feelings that they never stop to contemplate just how utterly useless we all are when it comes to making a tangible positive impact on this planet.

Realistically speaking you will barely be able to take care of your own life and your family. Meanwhile, some psycho will gun down or bomb a hundred people effectively annihilating a thousand generations in an instant. Even the smallest mistake in life can have cataclysmic consequences and there is no possible way that you can avoid making them. Life is a joke and there are no miracles. What exactly was the point of Jesus showing up? Is life like some reality TV show where you have to solve the puzzle of faith so you get a reward (heaven) at the end of it? Is our moment to moment existence just a silly game to him?

I find that to be incredibly strange. Why would he suffer the horrors of the cross just to play some silly game with our pathetic souls? This seems purely contradictory as I'm sure you would agree...

Inside you you are heavier than a million suns.

You are made up from particles that can move through walls.

Your brain is faster than any computer that we could ever create.

We were all light before the universe was.

 

[DarkSoul999]

Inside you you are heavier than a million suns.

You are made up from particles that can move through walls.

Your brain is faster than any computer that we could ever create.

We were all light before the universe was.

and when our dumb selves die the overwhelming vacuum of the universe will totally forget we ever existed. Nothing in the expanse of billions of light years of space will care how much those humans loved or hated their lives.

I'm only interested in higher objectives

 

[theanticrash]

and when our dumb selves die the overwhelming vacuum of the universe will totally forget we ever existed. Nothing in the expanse of billions of light years of space will care how much those humans loved or hated their lives.

I'm only interested in higher objectives

None of us know enough to be sure about anything, one reason why I am here debating Christian's.

 

[Albion]

I’m sorry you see only the darkness. I will pray for you. I have seen miracles, and heard of others much later than Biblical times. I have encountered God in a personal way, and it saved my life here and now, and changed it 35 years ago, and continuing to this day. Yes there is evil in this world; yes there is pain; yes there is suffering; but in the face of it all, I have found hope. My prayer is that you also find it. May God Bless you.

...and if I may add to your comments, the idea we read in the OP that, after Jesus, everything was the same as before is amazing. I think people may fall into that frame of mind simply because they take for granted all that has changed in human society because of the Christian Gospel.

 

[DarkSoul999]

...and if I may add to your comments, the idea we read in the OP that, after Jesus, everything was the same as before is amazing. I think people may fall into that frame of mind simply because they take for granted all that has changed in human society because of the Christian Gospel.

Society is already reverting back to Roman times. Nearly everyone is selfish, power-hungry, and carnal. The only difference is that instead of throwing the "party babies" in the sewer they toss them into waste disposal bags...

 

[Uber Genius]

To summarize, Jesus was born as a human baby because he wanted to be born as one then grew up to teach wisdom and perform thousands of life changing miracles far beyond anything we could conceive of today. Then he finished it all off by taking on the combined misery and horror of the world for the salvation of sinners.

Immediately following his resurrection, his apostles dedicated their lives to spreading the message of what happened and what it means. Meanwhile, absolutely everything remained the same. Then they died and basically everything remained as awful as before. Sure there are still people spreading the message just like the apostles but there really isn't anything else going on. We are completely alone in this world and entirely left to our own devices. There are NO MIRACLES and I wouldn't even say that goodness holds much of any power whatsoever on this planet. Just think about how much effort, brilliance, talent, energy, and straight up luck it takes to heal people and rebuild your community. Now think about how incredibly easy it is for evil to get what it wants. Sure your spiritual fruits will earn you brownie points in heaven but you are still a small, insignificant, nothing of a person on this planet. You and I will never accomplish much of anything and God seems to refuse to empower us. He has zero interest in watching us defeat evil. In fact, you can find countless examples of Christians and other righteous people being totally crushed under-heel and the wicked taking total control for the vast majority of a nation's history.

So my question is: why would Jesus come into the world as he did and die as he did and then....completely abandon everyone?! I am not suggesting that he shoot down lightning bolts to blast the wicked I am suggestion that he EMPOWER the believers...but obviously he doesn't feel like doing that. Yes I realize that most of you don't feel alone or weak because you think the Holy Spirit is talking to you. That is wonderful. I feel happy for you. Beyond that there is no concrete evidence that God is even slightly interested in your time on Earth. He might be profoundly interested in where you spend eternity but this life is a completely disgusting waste of time. There is no hope that regular people will ever fight evil and win. In fact you will continuously cower before its might until you are lucky enough to breathe your last. It might seem like the good guys sometimes win but that victory is very very fleeting and the darkness swallows up what little progress they might have made.

I get the impression that most Christians are so focused on spiritual ideas and feelings that they never stop to contemplate just how utterly useless we all are when it comes to making a tangible positive impact on this planet.

Realistically speaking you will barely be able to take care of your own life and your family. Meanwhile, some psycho will gun down or bomb a hundred people effectively annihilating a thousand generations in an instant. Even the smallest mistake in life can have cataclysmic consequences and there is no possible way that you can avoid making them. Life is a joke and there are no miracles. What exactly was the point of Jesus showing up? Is life like some reality TV show where you have to solve the puzzle of faith so you get a reward (heaven) at the end of it? Is our moment to moment existence just a silly game to him?

I find that to be incredibly strange. Why would he suffer the horrors of the cross just to play some silly game with our pathetic souls? This seems purely contradictory as I'm sure you would agree...

Not sure where you are getting your view expressed in the OP?

It bears no resemblance to Christian history or teaching. Further I have experienced healing so similar to those described in the Bible and been used in supernatural ways to deeply impact people's lives. Is would need more info before I could make sense of your post.

 

[DarkSoul999]

Not sure where you are getting your view expressed in the OP?

It bears no resemblance to Christian history or teaching. Further I have experienced healing so similar to those described in the Bible and been used in supernatural ways to deeply impact people's lives. Is would need more info before I could make sense of your post.

I'm happy that you have experienced a miraculous healing. He must like you.

What information do you need? Do you need to know that I'm a stupid pathetic loser who is laughed at by absolutely everyone? Even homeless people think I'm a freak. Sometimes they get disgusted because I can't socialized like a normal person or form normal relationships.

I am God's mistake so naturally he has zero interest in my life and has cursed absolutely everyone and everything that even so much as comes into contact with me. I am a walking curse.

 

[Uber Genius]

I'm happy that you have experienced a miraculous healing. He must like you.

What information do you need? Do you need to know that I'm a stupid pathetic loser who is laughed at by absolutely everyone? Even homeless people think I'm a freak. Sometimes they get disgusted because I can't socialized like a normal person or form normal relationships.

I am God's mistake so naturally he has zero interest in my life and has cursed absolutely everyone and everything that even so much as comes into contact with me. I am a walking curse.

God does NOT heal people because he likes them and passes over the next person because he doesn't. I have a serious health condition call sarcoidosis that has crippled me for weeks, caused me to go completely blind twice, caused bladder, kidney and colon issues, and produce the most bizarre for of verticgo where I just suddenly flip over without warning while walking. It feels like I'm in a human gyroscope machine you would find at your local fair.

But God doesn't hate me. He has healed of a couple things decades ago and has allowed me to enter into the sphere of people who suffer chronic conditions with empathy and kindness. They can better-relate to me and are actual interested in hearing my perspective precisely because my suffering has been equal or greater than theirs.

So God loves you! He has perfect knowledge of you, not a socio-cultural perspective driven by current fads in culture or physical appearance. Your no freak to him. But remember how much suffering Paul went through. Including an illness that he wasn't healed from! Paul knew God loved him and rightly described his suffering as conforming him to Jesus' likeness who also chose a path of suffering.

 

[DarkSoul999]

God does heal people because he likes them and passes over the next person because he doesn't. I have a serious health condition call sarcoidosis that has crippled me for weeks, caused me to go completely blind twice, caused bladder, kidney and colon issues, and produce the most bizarre for of verticgo where I just suddenly flip over without warning while walking. It feels like I'm in a human gyroscope machine you would find at your local fair.

But God doesn't hate me. He has healed of a couple things decades ago and has allowed me to enter into the sphere of people who suffer chronic conditions with empathy and kindness. They can better-relate to me and are actual interested in hearing my perspective precisely because my suffering has been equal or greater than theirs.

You are able to relate to others and others share your experience. Congrats! I don't see how any of this is related to what I'm going through.I don't fit in anywhere.

So God loves you! He has perfect knowledge of you, not a socio-cultural perspective driven by current fads in culture or physical appearance. Your no freak to him. But remember how much suffering Paul went through. Including an illness that he wasn't healed from! Paul knew God loved him and rightly described his suffering as conforming him to Jesus' likeness who also chose a path of suffering.

Paul is a terrible example. He was one of the most influential people to ever walk the Earth and he kinda knew it. It is a lot easier to endure suffering when your life has an incredible purpose. If Paul was never born the world would be totally unrecognizable. It is possible that we would still be trapped in the Dark Ages. If I was never born a whole bunch of people would be wealthier and happier.

My life does not have any purpose despite how much effort I put in to try and find one. God does NOT love me! That is absurd!

I need evidence to believe that I'm not cursed and damned. If there is any evidence then I haven't the slightest clue where to find it.