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Have you seen Ezekiel 16? The entire chapter is devoted to driving the point home.
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Have you seen Ezekiel 16? The entire chapter is devoted to driving the point home.Why did you name Jerusalem? Why not Babylon itself? Why not Rome? Why not New York, the home of the United Nations. They all fit...why did you choose Jerusalem?
Hello Truth7t7.We agree Dave, I believe its a literal Jerusalem, and I reject the preterist interpretation also, as I see it as you do
Obviously the harlot is not a physical city, but a city is its people. So the harlot is its people.Incorrect. You got wrong Jerusalem.
The great city Jerusalem is the REPRESENTATION of the Church, which is this city of the great king. Not literal city. It is not the indivisible city itself, but the external Covenant Church is the earthly representation of the city of peace. And it was in this church where the true Church (Two Witnesses) of God dwelled and prophesied.
Matthew 5:35
Galatians 4:26
- "Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King."
Revelation 21:10
- "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
All believers are residents of 'that great city' Jerusalem, and the external covenant church is the earthly representation of that Holy City. When Jesus spoke saying, 'ye are the light of the world, a City that is set on an hill cannot be hid,' He was talking of the Church equating it to a city. The Church reigning on earth is the representation of this great city of light which Christ spoke about.
- "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"
Hebrews 12:22-23
The Church is the earthly representation of this city, and that is why Jerusalem is used as a sign, figure or token of this spiritual Jerusalem. The believers being dead or lifeless in the streets [plateia] or wide space of this great city signifies their state in the midst of the Church. The witness of God is no longer tolerated there and the power that these had to preach the Word of God there has been taken from them. They have been overcome and silenced by the beast released from the pit by God. This does not affect their Salvation of course, and that is why Revelation chapter seven says they all had to be sealed first. But the beast affects their witness or testimony in the Churches. They cannot effectively preach in the external covenant Church anymore because the spirit of Satan is ruling there, and the leaders have departed from the faith unto doctrines of devils. This is why God says of this great city that, it is 'spiritualy' called Sodom and Egypt. Because though the external Church still retains the name of Christ, spiritually speaking it has become as these two cities which were infamous for their abominations and bondage to Satan. When God's people turn from God and forsake His laws, God speaks of them in the spiritual sense as being in bondage of Egypt and in the abominations of Sodom.
- "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
- To the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,"
You need to read the context of the passage.
Rev 18:11-18
- And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
- The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
- And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
- And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
- The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
- And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
- For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
- And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
This has nothing to do whatsoever with physical city Jerusalem. This is a spiritual city that represents the congregation of God, that once great house filled with rich of GOSPELS which the merchandises signify! She will be brought to ruin and desolation whent he GOspel was removed from her! That is what is in picture!
Do you think God is talking about a physical city and her merchandises? You remove purple, cinnamons, or sheeps from a physical city and she physically fell into desolation? Seriously? This is not what God talked about and you got wrong Jerusalem to begin with. Jersuaelm is God's congregation where she was filled with spiritual riches that these merchandies represent! But now the riches has been removed from her (By God) signifies that she is now a spiritual naked because she lacks truth gospel. That is why the Elect are mourn over her becasue she no longer has the truth BECAUSE she is currently running by false prophets and christs, where their false doctrines has replaced the truth!
So no, you misunderstood that Christ did not die FOR physical wall of Jersualem. He died for HIS people, the congregation of Israel which is a represenative of Jersusalem.
Did the wall and stones of physical Jerusalem actually killed the prophets and Saints? Or was Jerusalem a city that represents people of the congregation who is guilty of killing God's prophets and saints by silence their truthful testimony?
God is not talking about physical nations here. He is talking about Gentiles which also means nations, who is coming into the congregation (mountain) of Israel with false doctrines and gospels all over the world, not in the Middle East.
Luk 21:22-24
[22] For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
[23] But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
[24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The wrath upon God's people as congregation of Israel who are supposed to represent God's kingdom. But God removed the Gospel from His congregation where children no longer can suck. In this matter, the professed Christians will be led away spiritually captive like the Gentiles. Until the judgment of God upon the congregation be fullfilled then Christ returns. Nothing ot do with physical city, war in the middle east, nor, physical famine.
Again, you did not allow Scripture to interpret what "heads" or "mountains" means in Scripture, especially in Revelation. It is not a literal mound of earth. Rather it is a spiritual kingdom of the beast that the harlot sits (rules).
The Bible did not say "kings of the world," you made it up. It specifically says, "the kings of the earth." Do you even know who they really are? Revelation 17 is all about this great harlot who fornicates with the KINGS OF THE EARTH. Who is this harlot? Physical city of Jerusalem, or the unfaithful New Testament congregation of Israel? She reigneth OVER the kings of the earth. That is why she was in royal garments. She rules over the PROFESSED CHRISTIANS (kings of the earth) all over the world. That is why God tell His True Elect to flee out of the midst of her that they not be burned with fire, while others are directing them to stay in the midst of her and fight the good fight while not realizing they are under the judgment of God themselves?
It is all about God's will and to allow them to give their kingdom (church) unto the beast, the false prophets and christs, until the Words of God shall be fulfilled, Revelation 17:17. That is why the church has become a harlot. Guess you have not noticed it today!
A woman or a physical city riding on a man, your version of antichrist? LOL.
Nope! Actually, you may be in her if the spirit reveals you who this harlot really is. That is why she is a mystery to many, even to many professed Christians who are within her and DENY this! They do not have spiritual ears and eyes to see who she really is. They are busy to notice the abominations taking place in their church as they try to pinpoint Babylon the Great with something else other than the church. Now thats deception that Satan wants Christians to believe!
I've been "at this" for some 57 years or so.Well Marvin I disagree with your view of Revelation 17/18 as I believe the OP, I been at this for 40 years.
I was bound for 20 years in the dispy pre-trib Calvary Chapels And Baptist Churches.
I still don't know much about Darby and never owned a Scofield bible. But I believe in the pretrib rapture of the church because I see it in the scriptures.I believed the rapture, without a clue of who John N. Darby Was, The C.I. Scofield bible was the thing to have, that made anybody carrying it a prophecy teacher?
Yep - I remember that movie.You gotta remember the movie series"A Thief In The Night" the unite squad running around for the antichrist, hunting down christians?
Now its the dispy, Dallas Theological Grad "Tim La Haye" in the Sci-Fi "Left Behind" series?
I've listened to them all at one time or another. And met a few of them. But I don't follow any one of them. I disagree with much of what they teach and am repulsed by their lifestyles.We went from Billy Graham, To TBN Paul Jan Crouch, Jimmy Swaggart, Kenneth Copeland, Jim And Tammy Faye Baker, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, TD Jake, Creflo I Want Your Dollar, With His Wife Daffy, On And On.
Right you are.The mark of the beast was a tattoo in the 70's a barcode in the 80's-90"s Now its a micro chip implant.
Roger that.60 million unborn being killed every year in the world, abortion.
Same Sex Marriage in about every western country right now?
Rainbow Flags flying infront of buildings that state they are God's church?
Homosexuals parading in the streets of Jerusalem?
How much longer will God allow this to continue?
The Deception Is Great Marvin, Matthew 24:24, Those that shall endure to "The End" shall be saved.
Klute im responding to Dave on our personal beliefs, Dave mentions he disagrees with the Matthew 24 "Preterist" interpretation. I respond I Agree?Hello Truth7t7.
You mentioned 'the preterist interpretation', which is confusing to say the least, as there are two very different variations of preterism.
1) Partial preterism is generally considered to be a historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all eschatological points of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church. Some partial preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord were not historically fulfilled. (wikipedia)
2) Full preterism differs from partial preterism in that full preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment. (wikipedia)
They are a county mile apart in how they interpret the scripture.
So in future my friend, before you refer to someone as a preterist make sure you know what your talking about.
Well Marvin There Is Not One Account Of A "Pre-Tribulation" rapture found in scripture.But I believe in the pretrib rapture of the church because I see it in the scriptures.
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Actually there are several accounts. But you would not accept them as such.Well Marvin There Is Not One Account Of A "Pre-Tribulation" rapture found in scripture.
Ahhh - the old John N Darby ploy. What would people do about the rapture doctrine if they were deprived of being able to throw old Darby into the mix?This is a false teaching brought into the church by John N. Darby 1830's
It may be your standard straw man text. But it is hardly the only justification for believing in a pre wrath rapture of the church - and I'm quite sure you know it.Your standard text 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is nothing more than the future "Second Coming" and "Last Day" resurrection of the believer.
I certainly agree with you here.Is a resurrection of the believer seen in the scripture above 100% Yes!
Everyone knows that scripture.Gods word alone states the believer is raised up on "The Last Day" John 6:40
Simply not true.All accounts of the dispys Pre-Trib rapture are nothing more than the "Second Advent" of Jesus Christ, trying to be pawned off as a pre-trib rapture.
Just like your references to John Darby and the Scofield bible is the bait used to switch from why people who have barely heard of Darby and never owned a Scofield bible would believe in the pre-wrath rapture of the Body of Christ."The Ole Bait And Switch"
I wish you could see your way clear to remain silent in your unwarranted bashing of this scriptural truth.I couldt remain silent on this scriptural truth.
Sigh! The sun being darkened is exactly what it says and why it says: these flying little stinging beasties were coming out of the pit in such numbers they blocked the sun.
In Revelation 16, the sun, the moon, and even the stars are darkened. So you missed it yet again.
Only you imagine these locusts are symbolic.
If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense.
Obviously the harlot is not a physical city, but a city is its people. So the harlot is its people.
Marvin we will disagree, I believed as you for20 years until I studied the teaching.Actually there are several accounts. But you would not accept them as such.
Like so many doctrines, considering the rapture rquires bringing several scriptures to bear on the subject.
Ahhh - the old John N Darby ploy. What would people do about the rapture doctrine if they were deprived of being able to throw old Darby into the mix?
It may be your standard straw man text. But it is hardly the only justification for believing in a pre wrath rapture of the church - and I'm quite sure you know it.
I certainly agree with you here.
As they like to say down at Geico, "everyone knows that".
Everyone knows that scripture.
By the way - tell the saints who were raised up when Jesus died all about that.
Simply not true.
Just like your references to John Darby and the Scofield bible is the bait used to switch from why people who have barely heard of Darby and never owned a Scofield bible would believe in the pre-wrath rapture of the Body of Christ.
I wish you could see your way clear to remain silent in your unwarranted bashing of this scriptural truth.
It serves no good purpose.
Certainly many people disagree on this doctrine and will continue to do so until the rapture of the Church.We will disagree on the rapture, I stated my opinion and you did the same.
You believe the pre-trib rapture to be a biblical teaching, I believe its non-biblical.
We will disagree
Marvin I strongly disagree on keeping silent on Darby/ScofieldCertainly many disagree on this doctrine and will continue to do so until the rapture of the Church.
It's nice to part on a good note.
I'm honestly not just trying to get in the last word here.
But not so humble opinion it would be good if you would simply drop the Darby/Scofield references when arguing your position.
I know there are a lot of references to those two people on the net coming from the anti-rapture side. But I think you would be better served by just sticking to the scriptures.
I have heard about the rapture from others and studied the subject for myself for a half a century or so. I have many books and articles which present the rapture concept and tell why the authors believe it to be scripture based.
I don't believe that I have ever in all that time heard a rapture proponent mention the writings of Darby or Scofield in any way and most certainly not the Left Behind novels.
Their presentation is always based on scripture references and concepts.
The same is true for believers in the restoration of a literal nation of Israel, a literal tribulation period displaying the wrath of God, and a literal millennial reign on earth.
Well Marvin I agree with you because there is a lot about it in the scriptures...Problem is....Christians seem to confuse the rapture with Jesus second coming which are two separate events. So relax buddy and get ready to go home.W
Well Marvin There Is Not One Account Of A "Pre-Tribulation" rapture found in scripture.
This is a false teaching brought into the church by John N. Darby 1830's
Your standard text 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is nothing more than the future "Second Coming" and "Last Day" resurrection of the believer.
Is a resurrection of the believer seen in the scripture above 100% Yes!
Gods word alone states the believer is raisedup on "The Last Day" John 6:40
All accounts of the dispys Pre-Trib rapture are nothing more than the "Second Advent" of Jesus Christ, trying to be pawned off as a pre-trib rapture.
"The Ole Bait And Switch"
I couldt remain silent on this scriptural truth.
Jesus Christ Is Lord
Truth7t7
I'm ready and I can hardly wait.Well Marvin I agree with you because there is a lot about it in the scriptures...Problem is....Christians seem to confuse the rapture with Jesus second coming which are two separate events. So relax buddy and get ready to go home.
LOL I doubt very much you will see me on the way up, or me you...All eyes will be on only one thing....Our Jesus.I'm ready and I can hardly wait.
See you on the way up.
I'll be the charismatic/Reformed/Baptist - blasting off from just South of Seattle.
It'll be interesting to see whether we see Darby and Scofield in the change over, for all their apparent faults.
All I can say is, SHAME ON YOU!Marvin I strongly disagree on keeping silent on Darby/Scofield
The largest propagator of the pre-trib rapture, and the greates world impetus for "Dispensationalism" as a whole was C.I. Scofields 1909 reference bible, that was placed in hands around the world like wildfire.
C.I. Scofield was a corrupt tree as you know, he abonded his wife Leotine and two daughters, and lead a concealed his true life and identity in Pastoring a church in Dallas Texas, after his divore he married a very yound girl in his Sunday school class "Hettie Van Wark" as she was the secretary to his refrence notes.
Lewis S. Chaffer founder of Dallas Theological seminary was a member of his Dallas church, and student to his teachings.
C.I. Scofield was the instrument used to establish dispensationalism as we know it today, with Dallas Theological being the throne on this earth for its teachings.
Scofield died in 1921 while being married to "Hettie Van Wark" while Leotine Scofield and his two daughters lived.
Scofield is a "Corrupt Tree" in my opinion, good fruit is impossible to grow from this tree. Matthew 7:18
I will continue to expose the foundational propagator of dispensationalism, to remain silent on this truth would be a grave injustice to the Kingdom Of God.
Jesus Christ Is Lord
Truth7t7
By God using Rome to desolate unfaithful Israel and ending the covenant that he had with her.1.) How will this prostitute get naked, exactly?
What is her wealth? What happened to her wealth when she becomes desolate? And WHY?
3.) What did God mean by one hour to you?
IF "New: Israel (body of Christ)" then what do you do with all the promises God made to Israel the nation, such as the valley of dry bones passage?By God using Rome to desolate unfaithful Israel and ending the covenant that he had with her.
Ezekiel 16:8
When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord God, and you became mine.
Spiritually, her wealth is the covenant with God
Physically, her wealth is the riches that Israel had.
It is taken from her because of her adulteries and killing of the prophets.
Swift destruction.
_________________________________________________________
In order for a woman to be an adulteress, she must have a husband to cheat on.
There are 2 covenants: old and new
Old: Israel (ethnic)
New: Israel (body of Christ)
Israel was accused of adultery throughout the OT, her husband was God.
If the harlot/Babylon is not Israel, as some on here say, it must be about someone/something that has been married to God in covenantal way.
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