Japanese Manga Did What American Comics Can't - True Diversity

[IceJad]

I recently watch a video on YouTube (several in fact) regarding the state of American comics industry. Well in short comics are getting their lunch money taken by the Japanese. For example Demon Slayer manga series alone in 2019/2020 sales is larger than the entire American comics industry sales. So there is no comparison that manga is eating up comics even in foreign markets.

There are multiple reasons as to why comics are in such a humiliated affair. One of the key point that put forward is the introduction of "diversity, inclusion & political" agenda into comics. Well it is not exactly wrong but it is not the whole truth either. I just like to give my opinion on this aspect alone. Preamble I read a lot of manga (still do) and use to (past tense) read American comics when they are still in newspaper strip format - days long gone.

Now I don't read modern comics but I do skimp thru the more notorious comic panels featuring these "diversity, inclusion & political" agendas when they pop up in the news. Some of the most audacious ones I have seen are drawing Trump as MODOK (a villain), putting talking point of conservatives into Red Skull speeches (another villain), gender swapping of Iceman & Superboy (into gay & bi respectively) and replacement of white heroes with other ethnicity. There is nothing wrong with diversity, inclusion & progressive ideology in comics by itself.

Here is where the Japanese manga did right - a space for all and everyone. Every form of storytelling is permissible as long as you have an audience and sales to backup. True diversity. So let me breakdown by segments.

Gender identity
Modern comics like to introduce LGBT characters or gender swap their existing characters and always in favor towards LGBT. These characters are nothing but their sexuality. Their mannerism, issues and story progression are nothing but in service to their sexual identity. It is putting the message before the story. Manga industry on the other hand welcomes all character sexuality without changing existing characters. You even have multiple genre like Yuri (lesbian romance), Yaoi (gay romance) and genderbender (turning into the opposite sex) along side the traditional genres. Another key differentiator is how they portray and develop these characters as normal humans. Take "Kyou Kara Mirai" manga as an example, it is about a school girl confessing her love to another girl and waiting for her answer. No LGBT message about acceptance or prejudice. Just a simple yet very charming about young love yet the characters are clearly lesbians.

Racial inclusivity
This has been a contentious issue in comics today where white characters are race swapped or replaced outright. Usually I hear the same point that minority needs the visibility. To get that visibility it is only right that prominent white characters are phased out. In manga industry you are allowed have manga featuring people from all races without the need to replace existing ones. This is also helped that each mangaka are independent of one another even when publishing under the same company. The publishing companies don't dictate the agendas to be put into their manga. So mangakas (artists) are free to explore different ways of storytelling and character creation. This freedom has led to many stories about people of other ethnicities from the mangakas for examples "Otoyomegatari" where it is about a central asian girl and "Arte" where it is about an Italian girl during the renaissance. At the same time quintessentially Japanese characters are able to exist.

Political messages
America is rife with partisanship to put it lightly. Not surprising this tribalism makes it into the comics industry. It has always been there but never as overt as present times. On top the overtness is the antagonistic nature of how it is implemented. It is next to zero nuance as to which side is the villain. Manga too has its fair share of political messages. However it is never overt like American comics. Take "Akumetsu" where the protagonist schoolboy kills corrupt politicians vaguely based on real life Japanase politicians and heavily promote then prime minister Koizumi Junichiro. The story is full of nuance where his actions are not 100% noble and the people he kills are not 100% evil. The story also revolves around the schoolboy and not the politics alone. In the end what he set out to do didn't come true and the prime minister he supported became a homeless vagabond due to his involvement. No side has the moral high ground to stand on.


TLDR - Manga is a space where all could exist where American comics today is exclusionary. Manga achieved true diversity.

 

[Cis.jd]

I remember watching that video and I felt it was inaccurate. I don't know about the stats in regards to demon slayer but what you gave about diversity isn't completely true.
The X-men comics where practically all of that.

 

[IceJad]

The X-men comics where practically all of that.

The old X-men from the days of Lee and Kirby. They know how to write nuance in their stories. They also don't change their characters but rather introduce new ones to achieve diversity. Just like manga.

 

[FireDragon76]

Japanese people read alot more manga due to cultural reasons. While Japanese people have a surprising degree of general literacy, the nature of written Japanese, based heavily on ideograms, lends itself better to graphic novels, whereas in the US and Europe, the idea of graphic novels is relatively recent. As a result, Japanese manga deal with a wider range of subjects and are read by a greater variety of people in general.

 

[IceJad]

Japanese people read alot more manga due to cultural reasons. While Japanese people have a surprising degree of general literacy, the nature of written Japanese, based heavily on ideograms, lends itself better to graphic novels, whereas in the US and Europe, the idea of graphic novels is relatively recent. As a result, Japanese manga deal with a wider range of subjects and are read by a greater variety of people in general.

I mean there are more than one aspect as to why Manga is dominating the printed (now also digital) entertainment media. Superior story, uniqueness, breath of genre, a culture of reading in Japan, etc. But most videos I watch usually includes a segment about diversity/inclusivity/politics as a reason why American comics fail which I don't fully agree.

This is because manga if you really read them (like I do) are full of the same points that fails the American comics. So diversity/inclusivity/politics in itself is not the issue. My view point is that the way American comics go about them is the problem. Modern comics are full of overt bias in social messaging and have a high degree of gatekeeping from the people in the industry. Certain ideologies permeate the mainstream comics industry. This has in no small terms damage the relationship with parts of its audience. This is undeniable.

Manga industry on the other hand do not have such sociopolitical overtness nor the same degree of gatekeeping. They are open to all forms of stories and from people of all ideological leaning. So this cultivate an environment of true inclusiveness, you get to continue with your manga as long as the fans are happy paying for it. There is no dictates to follow a set of sociopolitical ideology. Because of this, manga thrive on being unique to standout from their peers.

Manga also know their intended audience, there are people who like male hero (Dragonball), there are people who like female hero (Sailormoon), there are people who like Japanese culture (Vagabond), there are people who like sexual content (err... rather not give examples), there are people who like gays/lesbians romances (also rather not give examples for the same reason as before) and etc. The key difference is the manga industry don't curate according sociopolitical ideology like the present mainstream American comic. Mostly all segments of fans can coexist and support each other in their love.

This has the unintended effect of creating more diverse stories and characters. Wider audience for the medium. Allow publishers to profit by tapping into a larger pool of people. Unlike the American comics industry where sociopolitics limit the reach of potential audience. If there is any social norms that a mangaka needs to follow they are usually norms accepted across a vast segment of Japanese society. Therefore there is less antagonism between creator and fan.

So the concept of diversity, inclusivity and politics in comics aren't the factors but rather how American comics industry goes about them are.

 

[FireDragon76]

I mean there are more than one aspect as to why Manga is dominating the printed (now also digital) entertainment media. Superior story, uniqueness, breath of genre, a culture of reading in Japan, etc. But most videos I watch usually includes a segment about diversity/inclusivity/politics as a reason why American comics fail which I don't fully agree.

This is because manga if you really read them (like I do) are full of the same points that fails the American comics. So diversity/inclusivity/politics in itself is not the issue. My view point is that the way American comics go about them is the problem. Modern comics are full of overt bias in social messaging and have a high degree of gatekeeping from the people in the industry. Certain ideologies permeate the mainstream comics industry. This has in no small terms damage the relationship with parts of its audience. This is undeniable.

Manga industry on the other hand do not have such sociopolitical overtness nor the same degree of gatekeeping. They are open to all forms of stories and from people of all ideological leaning. So this cultivate an environment of true inclusiveness, you get to continue with your manga as long as the fans are happy paying for it. There is no dictates to follow a set of sociopolitical ideology. Because of this, manga thrive on being unique to standout from their peers.

Manga also know their intended audience, there are people who like male hero (Dragonball), there are people who like female hero (Sailormoon), there are people who like Japanese culture (Vagabond), there are people who like sexual content (err... rather not give examples), there are people who like gays/lesbians romances (also rather not give examples for the same reason as before) and etc. The key difference is the manga industry don't curate according sociopolitical ideology like the present mainstream American comic. Mostly all segments of fans can coexist and support each other in their love.

This has the unintended effect of creating more diverse stories and characters. Wider audience for the medium. Allow publishers to profit by tapping into a larger pool of people. Unlike the American comics industry where sociopolitics limit the reach of potential audience. If there is any social norms that a mangaka needs to follow they are usually norms accepted across a vast segment of Japanese society. Therefore there is less antagonism between creator and fan.

So the concept of diversity, inclusivity and politics in comics are the factors but rather how American comics industry goes about them are.

Japan and the US/Europe also have very different cultures and different histories, too, and that might account for differences as well. Japan is overwhelmingly non-Christian and conservative, for one thing, even though what "conservative" means is shaped more by Buddhist and Confucian values, than Christian ones (that has important implications, as Confucianism or Buddhism don't have the same taboos as Christian cultures, necessarily). Whereas the US is shaped by both broadly Christian and Enlightenment values that focus on the dignity and worth of the individual, and the liberation of the individual from arbitrary power, and has a wider range of political and social values in general, as a result., than what is common in Japan (where conservative politics and culture have dominated for decades since WWII).

 

[IceJad]

Japan and the US/Europe also have very different cultures and different histories, too, and that might account for differences as well. Japan is overwhelmingly non-Christian and conservative, for one thing, even though what "conservative" means is shaped more by Buddhist and Confucian values, than Christian ones (that has important implications, as Confucianism or Buddhism don't have the same taboos as Christian cultures, necessarily). Whereas the US is shaped by both broadly Christian and Enlightenment values that focus on the dignity and worth of the individual, and the liberation of the individual from arbitrary power, and has a wider range of political and social values in general, as a result., than what is common in Japan (where conservative politics and culture have dominated for decades since WWII).

That is not entirely correct. Japanese manga is heavily influenced by American comics in the early days after the war. In fact America pop culture help form the basis of modern day manga. You can see it in the works of the godfather of manga Tezuka Osamu. They are very western style in both storytelling and art. Then as western style manga started to saturate the market, mangakas started to look into their culture and history to develop their now distinct style of art and story telling. You will be surprise how much western conservatives values exist in manga as well. From the old culture of life is but a temporal state in dharmic religions to life in itself is valuable you get to live only once in Abrahamic religion. That's is why manga today is truly diverse. Different ideas and believe systems coexisting in their storytelling. The Japanese draw from all cultures and believe systems to standout from the crowd.

Also the point you brought up are not the reason why present day comics are failing. They have been doing well to good but not great before the modern socialpolitical infusion. Modern comics are anything but rooted in Christian or conservatives values neither are they socially expected to follow the values. The comics today are anti conservatives to mildly put it. In fact too much in the opposite direction that an antagonistic relationship has formed between the industry and a large segment of the audience. And this is only widening by the outwardly aggression shown by modern comic creators toward people on the rival ideology.

Therefore manga industry has achieve true diversity where American comics fails to do the same. All I have been saying is that the same concept but only one side achieve by embracing all where the other fumbles and stumbles by embracing exclusivity surprisingly.

 

[FireDragon76]

That is not entirely correct. Japanese manga is heavily influenced by American comics in the early days after the war. In fact America pop culture help form the basis of modern day manga. You can see it in the works of the godfather of manga Tezuka Osamu. They are very western style in both storytelling and art. Then as western style manga started to saturate the market, mangakas started to look into their culture and history to develop their now distinct style of art and story telling. You will be surprise how much western conservatives values exist in manga as well. From the old culture of life is but a temporal state in dharmic religions to life in itself is valuable you get to live only once in Abrahamic religion. That's is why manga today is truly diverse. Different ideas and believe systems coexisting in their storytelling. The Japanese draw from all cultures and believe systems to standout from the crowd.

Japan itself is far from being a diverse society. It's relatively culturally homogeneous, that is widely recognized by social scientists for some time. Immigrants in Japan, the few there are, tend to live on the margins of Japanese society. Even ones that have lived in Japan for hundreds of years, such as the small Korean or Chinese communities that exist in parts of Japan, are often still viewed as foreign.

Japanese have superficially appropriated elements of western culture in the same way that Americans have appropriated things from Asian cultures. But that doesn't really change what I said. It's common in Japan to find a fascination with medieval European folklore and Christian religious imagery but that doesn't necessarily mean Japanese people embody western culture in the way European and American people do.

 

[IceJad]

Japan itself is far from being a diverse society. It's relatively culturally homogeneous, that is widely recognized by social scientists for some time. Immigrants in Japan, the few there are, tend to live on the margins of Japanese society. Even ones that have lived in Japan for hundreds of years, such as the small Korean or Chinese communities that exist in parts of Japan, are often still viewed as foreign.

Japanese have superficially appropriated elements of western culture in the same way that Americans have appropriated things from Asian cultures. But that doesn't really change what I said. It's common in Japan to find a fascination with medieval European folklore and Christian religious imagery but that doesn't necessarily mean Japanese people embody western culture in the way European and American people do.

That is an unfair assessment of diversity in manga. You can't say because the society is not diverse therefore their manga are not. So what if they are homogeneous? So what they use western values as superficial dressing in storytelling? Is the end product diverse? Yes more so than the racially diverse American comics.

This is a dangerous notion and somewhat racially insensitive when diversity of a product is only measured by the people who create them. Veers too close to only people from the culture can tell stories about their race. Storytelling is that making up a story. I can tell a story about a Taoist Slavic girl staying in Siberia even if I'm a Christian ethnic Chinese staying in Malaysia. As long as my story is exciting and enjoyable that is merit in itself. It may be superficial but it is diverse. And whether it is truly superficial only the readers can decide. If my idea sells then it sells. And I have added into the diversity of storytelling.

Don't forget that Aladdin is a story about a Chinese boy finding a genie and rescuing a princess told by a Persian girl. Storytelling is not limited by race nor religion to be diverse.

I don't need to embrace a culture or believe system to understand it.

 

[FireDragon76]

That is an unfair assessment of diversity in manga. You can't say because the society is not diverse therefore their manga are not. So what if they are homogeneous? So what they use western values as superficial dressing in storytelling? Is the end product diverse? Yes more so than the racially diverse American comics.

This is a dangerous notion and somewhat racially insensitive when diversity of a product is only measured by the people who create them. Veers too close to only people from the culture can tell stories about their race. Storytelling is that making up a story. I can tell a story about a Taoist Slavic girl staying in Siberia even if I'm a Christian ethnic Chinese staying in Malaysia. As long as my story is exciting and enjoyable that is merit in itself. It may be superficial but it is diverse. And whether it is truly superficial only the readers can decide. If my idea sells then it sells. And I have added into the diversity of storytelling.

Don't forget that Aladdin is a story about a Chinese boy finding a genie and rescuing a princess told by a Persian girl. Storytelling is not limited by race nor religion to be diverse.

I don't need to embrace a culture or believe system to understand it.

You miss the point entirely.

Japanese is not an ideologically diverse country, as compared to the United States or Europe. Marginalization of foreigners is just one aspect of that.

 

[IceJad]

You miss the point entirely.

Japanese is not an ideologically diverse country, as compared to the United States or Europe. Marginalization of foreigners is just one aspect of that.

And that has nothing to do with manga diversity. And you would also be incorrect about ideological diversity. Japanese have a propensity to be collective. That is a hold over of Confucian ideology. Everyone has their place in society. However to say they have no ideological diversity when they have multiple political parties, religions, view on sexuality and etc has no merit.

Don't mistake outward collectiveness with inwards ideology. Japanese even have different terms for public opinion and personal opinion - tatemae and honne. In fact it is very hard to get honne - personal opinion from Japanese people unless they are very close to you. They also believe in keeping to one's self. Don't disturb the harmony of the public. This gives the impression that Japanese are singular in thoughts and believes but in reality that is untrue.

Also diversity is no only about race. It is the western concept and perception that diversity must always have element of race. I don't blame the west given the history. Diversity in story like those found in manga include genres, art style, age group, character personality, gender, world building and much more. This is where the American comics fail, their diversity are centered around race, gender, sexuality & politics. That is not just within the story but have to include the people creating the story as well.

Here is why manga is truly diverse. Diverse in the purest sense of the word. All stories are permissible. The creator background matters not only ideas. Modern American comics industry view diversity from real life societal perspective. Stories must contain certain elements to be diverse. Same to the people who create them. That is not diversity that is conformity.

 

[Cis.jd]

The old X-men from the days of Lee and Kirby. They know how to write nuance in their stories. They also don't change their characters but rather introduce new ones to achieve diversity. Just like manga.

Well, the point was that Manga being the starters or innovators of the whole diversity can't be true because of Marvel, especially the X-men. The whole story of the X-men is inspired by the human rights stuff with Prof X. being inspired by MLK, and Magneto being inspired by Malcom X.

Also, they made Iceman gay.

Also diversity is no only about race. It is the western concept and perception that diversity must always have element of race. I don't blame the west given the history. Diversity in story like those found in manga include genres, art style, age group, character personality, gender, world building and much more. This is where the American comics fail, their diversity are centered around race, gender, sexuality & politics. That is not just within the story but have to include the people creating the story as well.

Race, culture, gender, etc is what defines diversity though. It isn't a western only concept. What you are talking about is "variety". Also, i don't see how Marvel and DC never had any of the "diversity" you listed. Age groups: There have been many of this, all of the marvel characters have different personalities, gender, etc. Spiderman for example isn't like Ironman or Capt. America, he is actually an average joe who lives in a trash apartment and deals with a lot of human like problems, Punisher is complete anti-hero, Nightcrawler is religious, Magneto is a villain yet his views in some way are justifiable (politics), Mystique and Destiny (sexuality), I can go on with more. Art styles have also changed over time.

 

[IceJad]

Well, the point was that Manga being the starters or innovators of the whole diversity can't be true because of Marvel, especially the X-men. The whole story of the X-men is inspired by the human rights stuff with Prof X. being inspired by MLK, and Magneto being inspired by Malcom X.

Firstly I didn't say Manga are starter of diversity. It is through the decades they become that and modern American comics didn't achieve the same. Everything diverse about X-men & American comics are now already found in spades in manga. On top that even surpassing American comics in true diversity. Diversity in genre, characters, storylines, art style, age group, sexuality, ideology and many more. All this while remaining mainstream in Japan. Same can't be said about modern American comics industry. Mainstream comics are full of gatekeeping, changing of established characters, replacement of existing characters, limitation of ideology and limitation of sexual portrayal. These even extend down to even the artists. "Diversity" hire.

Race, culture, gender, etc is what defines diversity though. It isn't a western only concept. What you are talking about is "variety". Also, i don't see how Marvel and DC never had any of the "diversity" you listed. Age groups: There have been many of this, all of the marvel characters have different personalities, gender, etc. Spiderman for example isn't like Ironman or Capt. America, he is actually an average joe who lives in a trash apartment and deals with a lot of human like problems, Punisher is complete anti-hero, Nightcrawler is religious, Magneto is a villain yet his views in some way are justifiable (politics), Mystique and Destiny (sexuality), I can go on with more. Art styles have also changed over time.

diverse
adjective
1.
showing a great deal of variety; very different.
"subjects as diverse as architecture, language teaching, and the physical sciences"

2.
including or involving people from a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds and of different genders, sexual orientations, etc.
"our company is an equal opportunity employer committed to hiring a diverse workforce"

Like I said westerners like to view diversity from the social political perspective. You just reaffirmed how much that is true. Where true diversity doesn't mean that. Manga is diverse because of variety and within that variety includes elements of social diversity. While comics today don't hold true diversity because your mainstream publishers have ideological mandates that limits the variety of stories & characters that can be told. It is a form of conformity in the guise of diversity.

Manga industry is based on meritocracy. The best story with the best sales. This foster competition and uniqueness which drive up diversity indirectly. Manga frees up the space for all stories to exist where American comics limits the space. That why way comics can't compete even in the aspect of diversity.