Japan and cremation

[RileyG]

Inspired by @gurneyhalleck1 thread, this got me thinking....

What do Orthodox do if they live in Japan where a vast majority (99%+) of dead bodies are cremated by law?

Is there a religious exemption?

Sorry for the morbid topic..I was just curious

God bless

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think they must cremate, unfortunately.

 

[RileyG]

I think they must cremate, unfortunately.

Yikes!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Inspired by @gurneyhalleck1 thread, this got me thinking....

What do Orthodox do if they live in Japan where a vast majority (99%+) of dead bodies are cremated by law?

Is there a religious exemption?

Sorry for the morbid topic..I was just curious

God bless

Unfortunately, Father is right…

 

[RileyG]

Unfortunately, Father is right…

All bodies will eventually decompose, even if they’ve been embalmed, so God can raise the dead from any condition and make them incorruptible, correct?

Cremation is essentially seen as desecrating the body which is sacred? It’s compared with a pagan practice?

 

[prodromos]

All bodies will eventually decompose, even if they’ve been embalmed, so God can raise the dead from any condition and make them incorruptible, correct?

Correct

Cremation is essentially seen as desecrating the body which is sacred?

The complete process involves violence against the remnants of the burning procedure, the bones being crushed to powder.

It’s compared with a pagan practice?

Not sure, but it certainly leaves nothing to venerate if the person was revealed to be a Saint.

 

[ArmyMatt]

All bodies will eventually decompose, even if they’ve been embalmed, so God can raise the dead from any condition and make them incorruptible, correct?

Cremation is essentially seen as desecrating the body which is sacred? It’s compared with a pagan practice?

plus, what happens if the relics are to be myrrh gushing or incorrupt?

 

[Daniel9v9]

If I may — I served in Japan, and while I haven't had any funerals myself, I do know priests who have, so I'd be glad to share about this.

There are many things that the government of Japan can't enforce, but due to a strong tradition and local mandates, cremation is an almost universal practice in Japan, even if it's not a national law. There may be practical reasons (related to space and earthquakes), but it has a background in Buddhism. There's even a joke or saying in Japan that a Japanese person is born Shinto, marries Christian, and dies Buddhist. But those who are Orthodox, and really all Christians, will opt out of what is almost an automatic birth into Shinto and exit into Buddhism, by having Baptism and a Christian funeral instead.

However, churches in Japan tend to conform to the country's cremation practice. This can be very peculiar in that priests may have their final rites in a Buddhist environment and draw on Buddhist practices. So while funerals may look more or less like they do in the west, the cremation practice ordinarily has Buddhist priests and elements involved, which is modified for Christians, with Christian clergy. Shinto and Buddhist syncretism and influence is a controversy among Japanese Christians, but my understanding is that many if not most accept the common cremation practice. I don't think there is a religious exemption, but there may be places in Japan where burial is possible. But I suspect most people don't think about it all too much.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

https://orthodoxtimes.com/first-orthodox-cemetery-opens-in-japan-wooden-church-from-romania-to-serve-as-chapel/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CCremation%252C%2520as%2520we%2520know%252C,of%2520Tokyo's%2520Romanian%2520parish%2520noted.

 

[The Liturgist]

https://orthodoxtimes.com/first-orthodox-cemetery-opens-in-japan-wooden-church-from-romania-to-serve-as-chapel/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CCremation%252C%2520as%2520we%2520know%252C,of%2520Tokyo's%2520Romanian%2520parish%2520noted.

Glory to God!

I myself also make periodic posts in the main forum in which I have found an ally in our Confessional Lutheran friends, about the problems with cremation. Of course the Lutherans prefer to embalm, but this is much less of a problem, and Orthodox tend to use refrigeration for a similar purpose prior to funerals. I really like how some Orthodox parishes are set up to provide an Orthodox burial inexpensively whenever needed, such as Fr. Josiah Trenham’s parish, which keeps a plain Orthodox casket standing by. Its very comforting.

Particularly when compared to the gruesome spectacle of columbaria in Episcopalian churches. There aren’t enough words in the English language to express the extent to which I object to Episcopalians putting in columbaria in their churches. I regard cremation as being one of the worst things humans are allowing people to do to them, and the Episcopal Church, just like with abortion and euthanasia, is on the wrong side. *


* But this is beneficial for us, since they have been a steady source of converts, and unlike with the UCC where almost everyone who is not extremely theologically postmodern, to it it nicely, has been alienated, in the case of the Episcopalians the number of remaining traditionalists is very large. I have visited Episcopal parishes in recent months which consist entirely of traditional and moderate Christians. The main concern about the Episcopal Church and other mainline Anglican churches as a source for converts is the birth rate and the number of children in attendance, which is frightfully low in some provinces.

One thing we really need to do with converts to Orthodoxy is make sure that if they lack a clear monastic vocation, and are capable of reproduction, we get them to reproduce if they are married, and if they are not married but suitable, according to the canons, we should try to correct that once they have been baptized or chrismated.

I would note the Mormons do this for abusive purposes as a means of control, but a friend of mine who got sucked into Mormonism, his Mormon wife got fed up with the LDS church, as she is very intelligent, and left the heresy, and is now trying to convert my friend to a more normal Christianity. Which is an improvement. Also the Antiochians are having some success in Utah, where I believe they are the largest jurisdiction by a fair margin.

 

[RileyG]

@The Liturgist

Off topic: I had a former friend from college, she was LCMS Lutheran, her mother died from cancer and was cremated. I do not know how confessional Lutherans view that, but it's apparently permitted.

 

[RileyG]

https://orthodoxtimes.com/first-orthodox-cemetery-opens-in-japan-wooden-church-from-romania-to-serve-as-chapel/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CCremation%252C%2520as%2520we%2520know%252C,of%2520Tokyo's%2520Romanian%2520parish%2520noted.

Good!

I also wonder what Orthodox Jews, and Muslims in Japan do since cremation is against their religious beliefs.

 

[E.C.]

I've heard two different things.
One was that the Japanese Orthodox would have the funeral with the body and then cremation would follow.
The other was that there were still some cemeteries in use for Christian burial including the one where St Nicholas of Japan's relics are as well as where Metropolitan Daniel was buried.

But hey, if the Romanians have helped procure a purpose-built Orthodox cemetery then I call that a win.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

Somewhat off topic, but I think the traditional inhumation is a wasteful practice, and is vain, ultimately. Before you go ballistic on me, I think the monastic practice of temporary burial, followed by the exhumation, cleaning and storage of the bones, is what should be done. And, would be practical for Japan as to land use, if that is an issue there.

I am unaware of this being available in the US. Seems to me that this would be a good 'business' for Orthodox monasteries to offer the Faithful. Since I will 'soon' need that service, does anyone know if it is available in the US?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Good thread, had a question arise while reading:

Curious, if there was a war and bodies were vaporized or reduced to ash by certain high class bombs .. would God (in Orthodox theology) be able to resurrect those people too?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Curious, if there was a war and bodies were vaporized or reduced to ash by certain high class bombs .. would God (in Orthodox theology) be able to resurrect those people too?

yes.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

yes.

Thank you.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

Good thread, had a question arise while reading:

Curious, if there was a war and bodies were vaporized or reduced to ash by certain high class bombs .. would God (in Orthodox theology) be able to resurrect those people too?

I'm sure that Orthodoxy has an answer for that. In a report of the submersible that sank so many hundreds of meters in depth, it was said that in addition to being thoroughly crushed by the depth pressure, the bones, whatever remains, dissolve. Burials at sea don't involve such depths knowingly, but as the bodies are weighted down, it is conceivable that they are crushed too, well before the body decomposes through biologic or chemical actions.

I am not ready to declare apostasy and I don't have any problem with Orthodoxy's position on burials, but I think it isn't Orthodoxy's strongest position. For practical reasons. There are too many common circumstances of death where a body will not be available to be buried intact.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you.

no problem!

 

[The Liturgist]

Good thread, had a question arise while reading:

Curious, if there was a war and bodies were vaporized or reduced to ash by certain high class bombs .. would God (in Orthodox theology) be able to resurrect those people too?

Absolutely. God is omnipotent. Also, by the way, this is not unscientific - two of the most well-tested principles of physics are mass-energy equivalence (in Special Relativity), and even before that, going back to the 17th century, conservation of energy.

So you can’t actually completely erase a human from existence in the universe, unless you are God, since He alone is omnipotent and able to do something like that, although as far as I am aware of He has never done this, and I don’t think there is any scriptural or patristic basis for saying that He ever will - indeed, that is the heresy of Annhilationism, taught by some sects on the fringes of Christianity. Rather, if someone is killed, and their body partially or entirely destroyed, whether through cremation or another means, such as a nuclear weapon, no matter how extreme the change, what has happened is that their bodies have merely been reconfigured, converted in part or in whole to energy.

The reason for rejecting cremation is because of its association with paganism, and also the fact that it disrespects the divine image of human beings. Since we are created in the image of God, when one destroys a human, one is engaging the supreme act of Iconoclasm, destroying the image of God.

However, I do not believe that the many Protestants, including a great many of my relatives, intended to do this, and I pray for God to save them. I even know an Anglican bishop, who is a very decent Christian, and a veteran of the Korean War who wants to be cremated, on the basis of avoiding iconoclasm, because of a traumatic experience in the war of jumping into a pit filled with dead soldiers, who had begun to decompose, during a firefight. So for him, the stress of that means that to preserve the divine image, in his specific case, he feels that he must be cremated, even though, in accordance with her beliefs, he buried his Armenian Orthodox wife. Please pray for him - his name is David. I am trying to help him through this, but I don’t know if I can, due to the severe trauma. He is closely connected to both Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, in that his son also married a Romanian Orthodox woman, one of whose relatives, who was a communist, recently died, which was regarded as tragic because of his practice of the communist religion.