James Jacob Prasch

[ianb321red]

Anyone familiar with Jacob Prasch/ Moriel Ministries?

Moriel Home

I was introduced to him by Danny777 a few months ago.
I listened to his testimony DVD recently and from an apologetic perspective he was VERY convincing.

However, he does not mix his words about other Christian leaders and bible teachers if he feels that their teaching what he calls a "mixture"; namely a mixture of truth and error and a false gospel.

For example, he called John Stott a "senile old skunk" because Stott went on record a few years ago saying that he did not believe anymore in the traditional Christian view of Hell i.e. everlasting and literal torment. He is similarly outspoken about the likes of Mark Driscoll (support of Rick Warren) and David Pawson (lack of clarity on the Toronto Blessing charismatic movement)..

What do people make of Prasch? Should he be so outspoken and aggressive towards other Christian leaders/ teachers? Is Prasch himself beyond criticism?

 

[Nige55]

I'm quite familiar with Jacob, he's certainly very provocative with calling out other preachers / ministers. I know this puts a lot of people off him, I don't think that anyone is exempt from investigation. Having said that, some of his ministries are startlingly convincing, I find he covers some points that I have never heard elsewhere ( or even with a fraction of the clarity). I'm going to see him in Nov. / Dec. I'm not put off by his boldness, I certainly personally feel that it comes from the right heart and out of desperation / anguish for those that are following false teachings and doctrines, or leading wayward lives. He certainly isn't vanilla in his beliefs, and in this day and age I find that refreshing.

 

[Robban]

Hi Ian,
Seeing as you took your time to post,
I looked for some videos of him,
there are plenty, but mostly long,
nothing wrong with that, but after about half way I could not handle anymore,
my head started spinning.

Thing is now in the Days of internet there are so many,
I may listen at times, you never know, you may pick up corn of wisdom.
But generally it is similar to politicians.
Personly I don,t like politics or politicians.
Sometimes I Think Christianity is as a big marketplace.

 

[welshman]

He can be very confrontational when it comes to calling out other ministries/preachers. Overall a lot of what he teaches is excellent. However, I would disagree with him that you can lose your salvation. This is what he teaches despite what the scriptures say about always being held in God's hand once you are born-again.

 

[MikeBigg]

For example, he called John Stott a "senile old skunk" because Stott went on record a few years ago saying that he did not believe anymore in the traditional Christian view of Hell

I have heard of the guy, but never heard his teachings.

I think to name call like that against a well respected pillar of evangelical Christianity is unacceptable. Who is he to call men of the stature of John Stott and David Pawson (I'm biased he lives a few miles from me - I painted his study, not that I agree with everything he says) to account?

There are ways to debate on issues that you don't agree with without resorting to behaviour like that.

The wiki page on John Stott is interesting. About the controversy it says:

Stott publicly espoused the idea of annihilationism, which is the belief that hell is incineration into non-existence,[25] rather than everlasting conscious torment (the traditional Evangelical approach). He was not dogmatic about this position, but held to it somewhat tentatively, insisting only that it be accepted as a legitimate evangelical option: "the ultimate annihilation of the wicked should at least be accepted as a legitimate, biblically founded alternative to their eternal conscious torment."​

Can you sense something of gentleness in Stott in that? I think I can. A Godly quality. Quite a contrast to Prasch, in my view.

Matt 7 informs me here: "17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."

I won't be listening to him.

 

[ianb321red]

Overall I am mainly in agreement with what I've heard from Prasch.

I do quite like his style in some respects since it is quite unique !

The only thing I've read which I think is slightly shakey is his endorsement of some extra biblical writings (book of Enoch) on the Nephilim that is basically claiming that Nephilim hybrids "clearly survived the great flood"......

 

[ianb321red]

I think to name call like that against a well respected pillar of evangelical Christianity is unacceptable. Who is he to call men of the stature of John Stott and David Pawson (I'm biased he lives a few miles from me - I painted his study, not that I agree with everything he says) to account?

But ironically it was actually David Pawson who was the first notable bible teacher I heard publicly criticise John Stott for the same thing that Prasch did!

 

[MikeBigg]

But ironically it was actually David Pawson who was the first notable bible teacher I heard publicly criticise John Stott for the same thing that Prasch did!

Ok - but in what terms?

I'm not saying criticism is wrong, but are we talking criticism of the man or his beliefs? I think Prasch crossed the line on that. I would hope that Pawson would not have done.

 

[theFijian]

Should he be so outspoken and aggressive towards other Christian leaders/ teachers? Is Prasch himself beyond criticism?

If he's going to be so strident in criticising others he himself should expect criticism, as should anybody else.

 

[Nige55]

Ok - but in what terms?

I'm not saying criticism is wrong, but are we talking criticism of the man or his beliefs? I think Prasch crossed the line on that. I would hope that Pawson would not have done.

I would encourage anyone to listen to a few examples of Jacob before making judgments regarding him calling others out.
I personally find that his more personal attacks come from a (righteous ?) anger towards those who lead others astray and into false / dangerous doctrines (which I believe also angers / grieves God). I'm not suggesting that all who he addresses could or should fall into that category, but that's why it's important to actually see and hear him before making a judgment call.

 

[Nige55]

If he's going to be so strident in criticising others he himself should expect criticism, as should anybody else.

Quite right Fijian. He's actually very open about welcoming testing, criticism, debates etc and invites many to do so. I haven't seen many actually take him up on this.
His 'lively', (lol) approach may well be how many synagogues sounded way back when.

 

[MikeBigg]

I would encourage anyone to listen to a few examples of Jacob before making judgments regarding him calling others out.
I personally find that his more personal attacks come from a (righteous ?) anger towards those who lead others astray and into false / dangerous doctrines (which I believe also angers / grieves God). I'm not suggesting that all who he addresses could or should fall into that category, but that's why it's important to actually see and hear him before making a judgment call.

But you can call someone out on bad doctrine without resorting to personal abuse. That is unacceptable whether prompted by righteous (and who is going to judge that) anger or not.

It is possible to speak in the strongest of terms against what one consider to be heretical views without being abusive toward the person.

In my view, and what I was always taught, you've lost the argument when you start being abusive. Usually because your argument didn't have strong enough legs of its own. It also shows huge immaturity. The sort of thing children do in the school playground.

On the whole, his teaching may be sound - along with many many others' teachings. I'd rather listen to the people who show themselves to be mature, with good character and good fruit.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[welshman]

Without being argumentative; how come you state you will not listen to Jacob Prasch due to his harsh criticism of others, yet you in another thread say that you are a "fan" of Smith Wigglesworth who kicked and punch people to heal them in the "name of the Lord"?

Ok - but in what terms?

I'm not saying criticism is wrong, but are we talking criticism of the man or his beliefs? I think Prasch crossed the line on that. I would hope that Pawson would not have done.

 

[Nige55]

Thanks Mike, totally respect your view on this. I do very much agree that hurling insults around and being offensive is not conducive to a mature discussion or argument.
Perhaps our goalposts are in different positions in that respect, and believe me I don't feel that I need to justify Jacob in any way. I do however believe that there's quite a lot of our beliefs and scripture that is offensive to others, it's something that goes along with our beliefs. Jesus managed to anger and offend some enough to the point of them trying to kill him (albeit due to some rather bolder statements !). Having said all that, yes I can understand it's too much for some folks at times and may put them off.
Blessings to you Mike.

 

[Nige55]

Without being argumentative; how come you state you will not listen to Jacob Prasch due to his harsh criticism of others, yet you in another thread say that you are a "fan" of Smith Wigglesworth who kicked and punch people to heal them in the "name of the Lord"?

I have just read the other thread you mention Welshman, and even with Mike stating that he does not condone the actions, I guess i share the same confusion. ??

 

[MikeBigg]

Well, maybe there is some double-mindedness at work here.

I have a passion to see people healed, especially unsaved people. I think Wigglesworth does have something that we can learn from.

There is actually something to learn from the punching (I don't recollect reading about kicking, though I haven't read everything) and healing. I'll try to explain what we can learn from it, but please don't see it as me thinking it is the right thing to do.

In the Bible people are healed in may different ways. Hands layed on, commands, shadows, washing etc. There is also a link between authority and healing. Jesus gave the 12 and the 72 authority then sent them out. What we have in the different ways of healing as different expressions of the authority.

I heard of a guy with a fairly significant healing ministry, try this out at a Bible week. He decided to call all the young people forward with ecxema and proceded to squirt them with a water pistol in the name of Jesus. Several of the young people got healed there and then.

I'm sure you won't approve of that guy's actions, but I mention to show that we can choose how we exercise the authority.

I think that Wigglesworth expressed his authority for healing by punching the tumour (I've only read of it happening once and that was when a woman had a tumour, but was struggling to get healed. The punch took her out of a religious state of mind allowing the healing to take place). The woman did get healed.

Other expressions of healing Wigglesworth used were standing a dead body up against a wall and commanding it to live. Which it did. That's not very respectful to the dead, is it.

I hope you can see a difference and maybe understand my position.

Certainly, I think it is a world apart from calling an respected Christian a "senile old skunk" just because he has a different view.

This is kind of derailing this thread - feel free to start a new thread - I'll suggest a title: "The senile Mr Bigg is inconsistent and heretical"

Regards,

Mike

 

[Nige55]

This is kind of derailing this thread - feel free to start a new thread - I'll suggest a title: "The senile Mr Bigg is inconsistent and heretical"

Regards,

Mike

May I suggest this ? - "The senile Mr Bigg is inconsistent, heretical and punched me square in the face " Lol !

 

[cyberlizard]

I like his bible exposition on the whole, but sometimes find he can come across as arrogant in his defence of his truths.


Steve

 

[Danny777]

Jacob Prasch does go a little over the top at times when talking of other teachers and while we could maybe fault his manner, it is very difficult to fault his teaching. He is one of the best Bible teachers I've heard.

He correctly exposes subtle false doctrine even though he does this in a way that borders on being too aggressive/insulting. However, he is also very honest about his own faults/failings as a person and will always be ready to give an answer to anyone who questions his teaching.

Given his incredible understanding of Scripture, he could have a glittering "career" as a Bible teacher if he compromised on his criticism of doctrinal falsehood. Instead, he remains unpopular by many and accepts a much smaller "following" than many Bible teachers because he refuses to compromise - I respect that.

He defends his "naming" of those to teach false doctrine by pointing out that NT testament writers also named the names of those who always taught false doctrine in their time.

His tone is very abrasive - if you ever attend one of his talks, there is no point sitting in first few rows (I made this mistake a few months ago!) as you will be deafened, but his teaching is up with the best. I'm happy to accept any shortcomings in delivery and tone to benefit from his exceptional teaching.

 

[Danny777]

Overall I am mainly in agreement with what I've heard from Prasch.

I do quite like his style in some respects since it is quite unique !

The only thing I've read which I think is slightly shakey is his endorsement of some extra biblical writings (book of Enoch) on the Nephilim that is basically claiming that Nephilim hybrids "clearly survived the great flood"......

Would be interested to read this - I imagine he believes the book of Enoch contain "some" factual truths without being the inspired Word of God.

It is possible the Nephilim survived the flood by being in the genetic make up of one of Noah's sons wives (Japheth or Ham's wife?). Scripture says that Noah was "perfect in his generations" and hence the bloodline of the Messiah was maintained through Noah and then his son Shem. If the nephilim were maintained through one of Noah's other sons wives, this would not taint the family line of Christ. Just a thought and may be wrong...

This is obviously the subject of a different discussion anyway.